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qgis and Large Format Print

Andrea Peri
Hi,

When try to plot or export on a pdf an A0 format using the composer.
I see sometime the qgis crash.

I need to print in A0 few times and so when qgis crash, I simply
reduce the quality from 600 dpi to 300 dpi and all go ok.

However I like to understand why qgis crash.
Infact I read somewhere that it is a memory availability problem.

So I like to know if increasing my memory RAM this crash problem could
disappeared.
Also I need to understand if a 4GB ram that is the maximum ram usable
on my window 32 bit.
Could be sufficient for a A0 print.

Thx,

--
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. . . . . . . . .
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy
Are you using qgis from trunk or qgis 1.8?

giovanni

2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
Hi,

When try to plot or export on a pdf an A0 format using the composer.
I see sometime the qgis crash.

I need to print in A0 few times and so when qgis crash, I simply
reduce the quality from 600 dpi to 300 dpi and all go ok.

However I like to understand why qgis crash.
Infact I read somewhere that it is a memory availability problem.

So I like to know if increasing my memory RAM this crash problem could
disappeared.
Also I need to understand if a 4GB ram that is the maximum ram usable
on my window 32 bit.
Could be sufficient for a A0 print.

Thx,

--
-----------------
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. . . . . . . . .
qwerty àèìòù
-----------------
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Andrea Peri
Both.
Usually I try to print firstly with 1.8.0.
If it crash , then I try with qgis trunk.
Sometime trunk has successful some other time no.


2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:

> Are you using qgis from trunk or qgis 1.8?
>
> giovanni
>
> 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> When try to plot or export on a pdf an A0 format using the composer.
>> I see sometime the qgis crash.
>>
>> I need to print in A0 few times and so when qgis crash, I simply
>> reduce the quality from 600 dpi to 300 dpi and all go ok.
>>
>> However I like to understand why qgis crash.
>> Infact I read somewhere that it is a memory availability problem.
>>
>> So I like to know if increasing my memory RAM this crash problem could
>> disappeared.
>> Also I need to understand if a 4GB ram that is the maximum ram usable
>> on my window 32 bit.
>> Could be sufficient for a A0 print.
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> --
>> -----------------
>> Andrea Peri
>> . . . . . . . . .
>> qwerty àèìòù
>> -----------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qgis-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>
>



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. . . . . . . . .
qwerty àèìòù
-----------------
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy
Could you share a sample project. I suppose you're using the Regione Toscana WMS...

2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
My print A0 are always with a base map of ortofoto from WMS (using tile option).

When try with 1.8.0 is will crash with a messagebox.
Using the trunk version sometime the print process will stop without
inish the download of all tiles.
I guess this is a silent crash of the printer module or of the composer.


2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
> I just asked because I haven't noticed the A0 issue with the trunk...
>
> giovanni
>
> 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Both.
>> Usually I try to print firstly with 1.8.0.
>> If it crash , then I try with qgis trunk.
>> Sometime trunk has successful some other time no.
>>
>>
>> 2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
>> > Are you using qgis from trunk or qgis 1.8?
>> >
>> > giovanni
>> >
>> > 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> When try to plot or export on a pdf an A0 format using the composer.
>> >> I see sometime the qgis crash.
>> >>
>> >> I need to print in A0 few times and so when qgis crash, I simply
>> >> reduce the quality from 600 dpi to 300 dpi and all go ok.
>> >>
>> >> However I like to understand why qgis crash.
>> >> Infact I read somewhere that it is a memory availability problem.
>> >>
>> >> So I like to know if increasing my memory RAM this crash problem could
>> >> disappeared.
>> >> Also I need to understand if a 4GB ram that is the maximum ram usable
>> >> on my window 32 bit.
>> >> Could be sufficient for a A0 print.
>> >>
>> >> Thx,
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> -----------------
>> >> Andrea Peri
>> >> . . . . . . . . .
>> >> qwerty àèìòù
>> >> -----------------
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Qgis-user mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------------
>> Andrea Peri
>> . . . . . . . . .
>> qwerty àèìòù
>> -----------------
>
>



--
-----------------
Andrea Peri
. . . . . . . . .
qwerty àèìòù
-----------------


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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Andrea Peri
No problema, but
AFAIK the qgis problem don't save the print composer.
so it should always be recreate.

The project is only a layer or two from the RT-WMS.

2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:

> Could you share a sample project. I suppose you're using the Regione Toscana
> WMS...
>
>
> 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>>
>> My print A0 are always with a base map of ortofoto from WMS (using tile
>> option).
>>
>> When try with 1.8.0 is will crash with a messagebox.
>> Using the trunk version sometime the print process will stop without
>> inish the download of all tiles.
>> I guess this is a silent crash of the printer module or of the composer.
>>
>>
>> 2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
>> > I just asked because I haven't noticed the A0 issue with the trunk...
>> >
>> > giovanni
>> >
>> > 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>> >>
>> >> Both.
>> >> Usually I try to print firstly with 1.8.0.
>> >> If it crash , then I try with qgis trunk.
>> >> Sometime trunk has successful some other time no.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > Are you using qgis from trunk or qgis 1.8?
>> >> >
>> >> > giovanni
>> >> >
>> >> > 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When try to plot or export on a pdf an A0 format using the composer.
>> >> >> I see sometime the qgis crash.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I need to print in A0 few times and so when qgis crash, I simply
>> >> >> reduce the quality from 600 dpi to 300 dpi and all go ok.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> However I like to understand why qgis crash.
>> >> >> Infact I read somewhere that it is a memory availability problem.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So I like to know if increasing my memory RAM this crash problem
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> disappeared.
>> >> >> Also I need to understand if a 4GB ram that is the maximum ram
>> >> >> usable
>> >> >> on my window 32 bit.
>> >> >> Could be sufficient for a A0 print.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thx,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> -----------------
>> >> >> Andrea Peri
>> >> >> . . . . . . . . .
>> >> >> qwerty àèìòù
>> >> >> -----------------
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Qgis-user mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> -----------------
>> >> Andrea Peri
>> >> . . . . . . . . .
>> >> qwerty àèìòù
>> >> -----------------
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------------
>> Andrea Peri
>> . . . . . . . . .
>> qwerty àèìòù
>> -----------------
>
>



--
-----------------
Andrea Peri
. . . . . . . . .
qwerty àèìòù
-----------------
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy

AFAIK the qgis problem don't save the print composer.
so it should always be recreate.

??? It should. It's also used by qgis server to provide print capabilities.
Anyway, I'll test it with any RT-WMS, ASAP
 

The project is only a layer or two from the RT-WMS.

2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
> Could you share a sample project. I suppose you're using the Regione Toscana
> WMS...
>
>
> 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>>
>> My print A0 are always with a base map of ortofoto from WMS (using tile
>> option).
>>
>> When try with 1.8.0 is will crash with a messagebox.
>> Using the trunk version sometime the print process will stop without
>> inish the download of all tiles.
>> I guess this is a silent crash of the printer module or of the composer.
>>
>>
>> 2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
>> > I just asked because I haven't noticed the A0 issue with the trunk...
>> >
>> > giovanni
>> >
>> > 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>> >>
>> >> Both.
>> >> Usually I try to print firstly with 1.8.0.
>> >> If it crash , then I try with qgis trunk.
>> >> Sometime trunk has successful some other time no.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2012/11/14 G. Allegri <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > Are you using qgis from trunk or qgis 1.8?
>> >> >
>> >> > giovanni
>> >> >
>> >> > 2012/11/14 Andrea Peri <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When try to plot or export on a pdf an A0 format using the composer.
>> >> >> I see sometime the qgis crash.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I need to print in A0 few times and so when qgis crash, I simply
>> >> >> reduce the quality from 600 dpi to 300 dpi and all go ok.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> However I like to understand why qgis crash.
>> >> >> Infact I read somewhere that it is a memory availability problem.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So I like to know if increasing my memory RAM this crash problem
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> disappeared.
>> >> >> Also I need to understand if a 4GB ram that is the maximum ram
>> >> >> usable
>> >> >> on my window 32 bit.
>> >> >> Could be sufficient for a A0 print.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thx,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> -----------------
>> >> >> Andrea Peri
>> >> >> . . . . . . . . .
>> >> >> qwerty àèìòù
>> >> >> -----------------
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Qgis-user mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> -----------------
>> >> Andrea Peri
>> >> . . . . . . . . .
>> >> qwerty àèìòù
>> >> -----------------
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------------
>> Andrea Peri
>> . . . . . . . . .
>> qwerty àèìòù
>> -----------------
>
>



--
-----------------
Andrea Peri
. . . . . . . . .
qwerty àèìòù
-----------------


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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Régis Haubourg
I confirm issue on both 1.8 and master.
It is related to these tickets:

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/3687

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/5840

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/4821

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/6498

I suppose we have problem with large memory usage on 32 bits platforms if it exceeds memory allowed. If confirmed, maybe this should be solved by using clustered temporary files so that it never exceeds max allowed memory in OS. All this need further investigations. I'm ready to fund this but that would help a lot if somebody confirm that this is a memory issue.. I don't know how to monitor this by myself.
Régis
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy
Ok, maybe that's why I'm not facing the issue, being on a 64 bit machine.
On Windows I use naively the Task Manager's Resource Monitor to see the memeory usage of my programs.
On Linux I use top [1]

giovanni

[1] http://linux.about.com/od/commands/l/blcmdl1_top.htm

2012/11/15 haubourg <[hidden email]>
I confirm issue on both 1.8 and master.
It is related to these tickets:

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/3687

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/5840

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/4821

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/6498

I suppose we have problem with large memory usage on 32 bits platforms if it
exceeds memory allowed. If confirmed, maybe this should be solved by using
clustered temporary files so that it never exceeds max allowed memory in OS.
All this need further investigations. I'm ready to fund this but that would
help a lot if somebody confirm that this is a memory issue.. I don't know
how to monitor this by myself.
Régis



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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Marco Hugentobler-4
In reply to this post by Régis Haubourg
Hi Régis

I can confirm it is a memory issue and should work with 64bit systems
(note: on windows you need a real 64bit build, a 32bit build will have
the memory problems even if it runs on 64bit hardware).

Regards,
Marco

On 15.11.2012 10:41, haubourg wrote:

> I confirm issue on both 1.8 and master.
> It is related to these tickets:
>
> http://hub.qgis.org/issues/3687
>
> http://hub.qgis.org/issues/5840
>
> http://hub.qgis.org/issues/4821
>
> http://hub.qgis.org/issues/6498
>
> I suppose we have problem with large memory usage on 32 bits platforms if it
> exceeds memory allowed. If confirmed, maybe this should be solved by using
> clustered temporary files so that it never exceeds max allowed memory in OS.
> All this need further investigations. I'm ready to fund this but that would
> help a lot if somebody confirm that this is a memory issue.. I don't know
> how to monitor this by myself.
> Régis
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/qgis-and-Large-Format-Print-tp5016300p5016544.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user


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Sourcepole -  Linux & Open Source Solutions
Weberstrasse 5, CH-8004 Zürich, Switzerland
[hidden email] http://www.sourcepole.ch
Technical Advisor QGIS Project Steering Committee

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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy

I can confirm it is a memory issue and should work with 64bit systems (note: on windows you need a real 64bit build, a 32bit build will have the memory problems even if it runs on 64bit hardware).

It works with my *real* 64 bit Windows :)

giovanni
 

Regards,
Marco

On 15.11.2012 10:41, haubourg wrote:
I confirm issue on both 1.8 and master.
It is related to these tickets:

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/3687

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/5840

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/4821

http://hub.qgis.org/issues/6498

I suppose we have problem with large memory usage on 32 bits platforms if it
exceeds memory allowed. If confirmed, maybe this should be solved by using
clustered temporary files so that it never exceeds max allowed memory in OS.
All this need further investigations. I'm ready to fund this but that would
help a lot if somebody confirm that this is a memory issue.. I don't know
how to monitor this by myself.
Régis



--
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Sourcepole -  Linux & Open Source Solutions
Weberstrasse 5, CH-8004 Zürich, Switzerland
[hidden email] http://www.sourcepole.ch
Technical Advisor QGIS Project Steering Committee

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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Paolo Cavallini
Il 15/11/2012 11:52, G. Allegri ha scritto:

I can confirm it is a memory issue and should work with 64bit systems (note: on windows you need a real 64bit build, a 32bit build will have the memory problems even if it runs on 64bit hardware).

It works with my *real* 64 bit Windows :)

Hi.
You mean you have a qgis compiled on win @ 64 bit?
Where did you get it from?

Marco: any hope to fix it also on 32 bit, maybe by swapping to disk, or other?
Some resources may be available for this.

All the best.
-- 
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www.faunalia.eu
Full contact details at www.faunalia.eu/pc
Nuovi corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.it/calendario

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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy

Hi.
You mean you have a qgis compiled on win @ 64 bit?
Where did you get it from?

Ops, sorry, I meant Linux 64 bit.
Windows bit would require to compile all the dependencies as 64 bit!
 

Marco: any hope to fix it also on 32 bit, maybe by swapping to disk, or other?
Some resources may be available for this.

All the best.
-- 
Paolo Cavallini - Faunalia
www.faunalia.eu
Full contact details at www.faunalia.eu/pc
Nuovi corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.it/calendario

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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Régis Haubourg
I'm interested in knowing if using clustered temporary files is a possible solution. Marco, your opinion?

I'm also interested in knowing if somebody ever worked on a 64 bit Windows version of QGIS.. That would be nice for perfs ! (I'm using WinServer 2008 R2.. 64 bits.).

Régis
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Marco Hugentobler-4
>I'm interested in knowing if using clustered temporary files is a possible
>solution. Marco, your opinion?

I think it is not worth the trouble. Better go with native 64bit builds,
the 32 bit machines are disappearing more and more.

Regards,
Marco

On 15.11.2012 17:12, haubourg wrote:

> I'm interested in knowing if using clustered temporary files is a possible
> solution. Marco, your opinion?
>
> I'm also interested in knowing if somebody ever worked on a 64 bit Windows
> version of QGIS.. That would be nice for perfs ! (I'm using WinServer 2008
> R2.. 64 bits.).
>
> Régis
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/qgis-and-Large-Format-Print-tp5016300p5016683.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user


--
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Sourcepole -  Linux & Open Source Solutions
Weberstrasse 5, CH-8004 Zürich, Switzerland
[hidden email] http://www.sourcepole.ch
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Paolo Cavallini
Il 15/11/2012 17:33, Marco Hugentobler ha scritto:
>> I'm interested in knowing if using clustered temporary files is a
>> possible
>> solution. Marco, your opinion?
>
> I think it is not worth the trouble. Better go with native 64bit
> builds, the 32 bit machines are disappearing more and more.
Unfortunately, in many Public Administrations here in Italy, the upgrade
cycle for hardware is not so fast, so for several years we expect to
have still 32 bits (or 64 bit installed with 32 bit win).
In any case, I guess a 64 bit win build is not yet available, right?
So, in short, it would be good to have an idea wheter it is possible to
find a solution also for 32's.
Marco, any idea?
Thanks.

--
Paolo Cavallini - Faunalia
www.faunalia.eu
Full contact details at www.faunalia.eu/pc
Nuovi corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.it/calendario

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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

luca_manganelli

Il 15/11/2012, [hidden email] ha scritto:

 

> Unfortunately, in many Public Administrations here in Italy, the upgrade

> cycle for hardware is not so fast, so for several years we expect to

> have still 32 bits (or 64 bit installed with 32 bit win).

> In any case, I guess a 64 bit win build is not yet available, right?

> So, in short, it would be good to have an idea wheter it is possible to

> find a solution also for 32's.

> Marco, any idea?

> Thanks.

 

I can confirm this situation. Many corporate machines are still running 32 bit operating system (Windows XP) because they must guarantee compatibility with certain old software.

 

It's not a good excuse to say "go to 64 bit!" because for years ArcMap was able to print very large and complex (A0 format and beyond) maps on PC with only 2GB of RAM.


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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Bernhard Ströbl


Am 16.11.2012 08:32, schrieb Luca Manganelli:

> Il 15/11/2012, [hidden email] ha scritto:
>
>> Unfortunately, in many Public Administrations here in Italy, the upgrade
>> cycle for hardware is not so fast, so for several years we expect to
>> have still 32 bits (or 64 bit installed with 32 bit win).
>> In any case, I guess a 64 bit win build is not yet available, right?
>> So, in short, it would be good to have an idea wheter it is possible to
>> find a solution also for 32's.
>> Marco, any idea?
>> Thanks.
>
> I can confirm this situation. Many corporate machines are still running 32
> bit operating system (Windows XP) because they must guarantee compatibility
> with certain old software.
>
> It's not a good excuse to say "go to 64 bit!" because for years ArcMap was
> able to print very large and complex (A0 format and beyond) maps on PC with
> only 2GB of RAM.
>

The print problems on Win32 are a major drawback here as large format
plans are needed.
Just to illustrate what Luca wrote: We are a city administration running
around 1200 PCs with some 500+ applications on WinXP. Hardware is less a
problem (almost all machines will be 64 bit next year) than to ensure
compatibility of _all_ applications with Win64. This needs intense
testing and negotiations with software companies and thus - time.

Bernhard


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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

giohappy
In reply to this post by Régis Haubourg


> I'm interested in knowing if using clustered temporary files is a possible
> solution. Marco, your opinion?

What do you mean with clustered temp files?

giovanni

> I'm also interested in knowing if somebody ever worked on a 64 bit Windows
> version of QGIS.. That would be nice for perfs ! (I'm using WinServer 2008
> R2.. 64 bits.).
>
> Régis
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/qgis-and-Large-Format-Print-tp5016300p5016683.html
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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Paolo Cavallini
In reply to this post by Bernhard Ströbl
Il 16/11/2012 08:55, Bernhard Ströbl ha scritto:
>
>
> The print problems on Win32 are a major drawback here as large format
> plans are needed.
> Just to illustrate what Luca wrote: We are a city administration
> running around 1200 PCs with some 500+ applications on WinXP. Hardware
> is less
In this case, an investment for a fix seems a reasonable option.
All the best.

--
Paolo Cavallini - Faunalia
www.faunalia.eu
Full contact details at www.faunalia.eu/pc
Nuovi corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.it/calendario

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Re: qgis and Large Format Print

Andreas Neumann
In reply to this post by Bernhard Ströbl
 The important thing would be to find out in what situation the printing
 fails?

 * Is it related to big rasters?
 * Are WMS used?
 * Is it failing on all printer or only certain printers?
 * Is the printer failing (some printers rund out of memory if you send
 big files) or is QGIS failing?

 There are so many unknowns that it is kind of hard to find out where
 exactly the printing fails.

 I do not print large formats too often, but I don't remember having
 problems often. We print with an old HP Designjet.

 Andreas

 On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:55:50 +0100, Bernhard Ströbl wrote:

> Am 16.11.2012 08:32, schrieb Luca Manganelli:
>> Il 15/11/2012, [hidden email] ha scritto:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, in many Public Administrations here in Italy, the
>>> upgrade
>>> cycle for hardware is not so fast, so for several years we expect
>>> to
>>> have still 32 bits (or 64 bit installed with 32 bit win).
>>> In any case, I guess a 64 bit win build is not yet available,
>>> right?
>>> So, in short, it would be good to have an idea wheter it is
>>> possible to
>>> find a solution also for 32's.
>>> Marco, any idea?
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> I can confirm this situation. Many corporate machines are still
>> running 32
>> bit operating system (Windows XP) because they must guarantee
>> compatibility
>> with certain old software.
>>
>> It's not a good excuse to say "go to 64 bit!" because for years
>> ArcMap was
>> able to print very large and complex (A0 format and beyond) maps on
>> PC with
>> only 2GB of RAM.
>>
>
> The print problems on Win32 are a major drawback here as large format
> plans are needed.
> Just to illustrate what Luca wrote: We are a city administration
> running around 1200 PCs with some 500+ applications on WinXP.
> Hardware
> is less a problem (almost all machines will be 64 bit next year) than
> to ensure compatibility of _all_ applications with Win64. This needs
> intense testing and negotiations with software companies and thus -
> time.
>
> Bernhard
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Mail Security, version of virus
> signature database 7697 (20121115) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Mail Security.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user

--
 --
 Andreas Neumann
 Böschacherstrasse 10A
 8624 Grüt (Gossau ZH)
 Switzerland
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