Shipping SAGA with QGIS

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Shipping SAGA with QGIS

volaya
Hi all

Here is a question I want to raise up and that I think is worth discussing

The SEXTANTE-SAGA bindings are working more or less fine, and it's by
far easier to ensure they work correctly than the GRASS bindings,
since SAGA doesn't have so many "uncommon" features as GRASS and
integration is much more straightforward. For this reason, SAGA is my
first choice as the main algorithm provider in SEXTANTE. However,
still many people find confusing that you have to install SAGA
separately, and I think that should be solved.

Only with SAGA and the python algorithms, SEXTANTE would have more
than enough for 90% of all users, including advanced ones. The current
toolbox shows by default a list of algorithms divided by providers,
but there is an "easy" mode that shows just one group with categories,
and I have been working in manually classifying the available ones in
a set of homogeneos categories.

Having SAGA shipped by default with QGIS will allow to set that simple
mode by default and completely remove the need to install anything or
even know which application is computing the results (the interface
does not show any distinction between algorithms). I believe that is a
huge step in making SEXTANTE more accesible to everyone. A working
SEXTANTE that is enough for the vast majority of users would be ready
with a fresh QGIS install. The current interface would be available
for more advanced users (and with SAGA already available in it,
without having to do anything else)

Adding SAGA in windows is trivial (just unzip it and you are done),
and in linux it might be a bit more complex, but it should not be a
problem. Mac might be the biggest problem here.

I would like to know the opinion of everyone about this. From my point
of view, as I said, it will mean a great improvement.

Thanks in advance!

Victor
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Alex Mandel-2
On 02/22/2013 01:17 PM, Victor Olaya wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Here is a question I want to raise up and that I think is worth discussing
>
> The SEXTANTE-SAGA bindings are working more or less fine, and it's by
> far easier to ensure they work correctly than the GRASS bindings,
> since SAGA doesn't have so many "uncommon" features as GRASS and
> integration is much more straightforward. For this reason, SAGA is my
> first choice as the main algorithm provider in SEXTANTE. However,
> still many people find confusing that you have to install SAGA
> separately, and I think that should be solved.
>
> Only with SAGA and the python algorithms, SEXTANTE would have more
> than enough for 90% of all users, including advanced ones. The current
> toolbox shows by default a list of algorithms divided by providers,
> but there is an "easy" mode that shows just one group with categories,
> and I have been working in manually classifying the available ones in
> a set of homogeneos categories.
>
> Having SAGA shipped by default with QGIS will allow to set that simple
> mode by default and completely remove the need to install anything or
> even know which application is computing the results (the interface
> does not show any distinction between algorithms). I believe that is a
> huge step in making SEXTANTE more accesible to everyone. A working
> SEXTANTE that is enough for the vast majority of users would be ready
> with a fresh QGIS install. The current interface would be available
> for more advanced users (and with SAGA already available in it,
> without having to do anything else)
>
> Adding SAGA in windows is trivial (just unzip it and you are done),
> and in linux it might be a bit more complex, but it should not be a
> problem. Mac might be the biggest problem here.
>
> I would like to know the opinion of everyone about this. From my point
> of view, as I said, it will mean a great improvement.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Victor

I'm in favor on Linux of making it a recommended package, and the same
for osgeo4w. QGIS at least on Ubuntu can and will install without GRASS,
SAGA should behave the same way. It just usually does get installed.
This is a simple change to the packaging rules.

I have no opinion on if to bundle it in the standalone installer for
windows.

Thanks,
Alex
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Brent Wood
In reply to this post by volaya
As a separate installer from a standard QGIS?

In which case what about a SAGA for QGIS download package & an R for QGIS as well?

Users can download the core QGIS, then add R &/or SAGA, already set up for QGIS, if they so desire. R/SAGA users who have already installed their software wouldn't need to.

Brent Wood

--- On Sat, 2/23/13, Victor Olaya <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Victor Olaya <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Qgis-developer] Shipping SAGA with QGIS
To: "qgis-developer" <[hidden email]>, "qgis-community" <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 10:17 AM

Hi all

Here is a question I want to raise up and that I think is worth discussing

The SEXTANTE-SAGA bindings are working more or less fine, and it's by
far easier to ensure they work correctly than the GRASS bindings,
since SAGA doesn't have so many "uncommon" features as GRASS and
integration is much more straightforward. For this reason, SAGA is my
first choice as the main algorithm provider in SEXTANTE. However,
still many people find confusing that you have to install SAGA
separately, and I think that should be solved.

Only with SAGA and the python algorithms, SEXTANTE would have more
than enough for 90% of all users, including advanced ones. The current
toolbox shows by default a list of algorithms divided by providers,
but there is an "easy" mode that shows just one group with categories,
and I have been working in manually classifying the available ones in
a set of homogeneos categories.

Having SAGA shipped by default with QGIS will allow to set that simple
mode by default and completely remove the need to install anything or
even know which application is computing the results (the interface
does not show any distinction between algorithms). I believe that is a
huge step in making SEXTANTE more accesible to everyone. A working
SEXTANTE that is enough for the vast majority of users would be ready
with a fresh QGIS install. The current interface would be available
for more advanced users (and with SAGA already available in it,
without having to do anything else)

Adding SAGA in windows is trivial (just unzip it and you are done),
and in linux it might be a bit more complex, but it should not be a
problem. Mac might be the biggest problem here.

I would like to know the opinion of everyone about this. From my point
of view, as I said, it will mean a great improvement.

Thanks in advance!

Victor
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Stefano Campus
In reply to this post by volaya
Hi victor, i agree with you.
I do prefer to use sextante also for basic operations already present in qgis menu.
It seems to me it is faster and i  more appreciate  temporary results instead of the duty of creating definitive layers.
I don't know if it is correct, but could it be possible to include saga in osgeo installer package?
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

macho
Hi!

Although I have to say that I'd like to have an easy install, I am against including everything in the installer ..
Wouldn't it be possible to just write something like an automated downloader and Installer..
Something that asks: "Would you like to download and install also SAGA?"
Probably that can be done generally to include more than one external programms there?
Nevertheless it will always be an "Installer" problem .. So maybe it's enough to give hints where to find the programs and let the users install. I think as the User found QGIS - he will also be able to find SAGA (with small hints) and other programs.

That's just my 2¢

kind regards
Werner


On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:50 PM, skampus <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi victor, i agree with you.
I do prefer to use sextante also for basic operations already present in
qgis menu.
It seems to me it is faster and i  more appreciate  temporary results
instead of the duty of creating definitive layers.
I don't know if it is correct, but could it be possible to include saga in
osgeo installer package?



--
View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036354.html
Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

volaya
In reply to this post by Stefano Campus
Thanks for the feedback

I agree that it is better to keep things separate, but at the same
time, the easier it is to have it all installed, the better for the
final user.

I am planning to improve the checkings that are performed before an
external algorithm is run, not just to check if the software is there
or if a folder is configured (which can be a wrong folder), but to
actually run a small algorithm, like a unit test. Maybe the first time
that a SAGA or OTB algorithm is run, we can show the user a notice
saying "Do you want SEXTANTE to check that the external application is
correctly installed and configured?". and in case it is not, tell the
user how to install it.

I think this will avoid having users trying to run an algorithm that
is not prepared to be run. From all the questions and reports I get
about issues in SEXTANTE, some are caused by bugs in SEXTANTE or some
data problem, but most are due to wrong setting of external apps or,
in most cases, people not even knowing that you have to install them
separately. I do not know how to easily solve this, but it clearly
should be a priority...

Thanks again

2013/2/23 skampus <[hidden email]>:

> Hi victor, i agree with you.
> I do prefer to use sextante also for basic operations already present in
> qgis menu.
> It seems to me it is faster and i  more appreciate  temporary results
> instead of the duty of creating definitive layers.
> I don't know if it is correct, but could it be possible to include saga in
> osgeo installer package?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036354.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Amit Kulkarni-5
It seems very strange coming from OpenBSD to split packages. In OpenBSD packages are bundled together as far as possible which makes sense (less hassle to maintain).

IMHO, the plugins and functionality which is thought to be core, should be included in a default install. But not for something whose target audience is very small. This way it keeps it simple for most users.

However, if a plugin install is complex, and it can be solved by installer, the plugin should be pushed to default install. This is very helpful for testing and less hassle for development, you will also avoid emails hitting the mailing lists about such issues.

--amit

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Victor Olaya <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback

I agree that it is better to keep things separate, but at the same
time, the easier it is to have it all installed, the better for the
final user.

I am planning to improve the checkings that are performed before an
external algorithm is run, not just to check if the software is there
or if a folder is configured (which can be a wrong folder), but to
actually run a small algorithm, like a unit test. Maybe the first time
that a SAGA or OTB algorithm is run, we can show the user a notice
saying "Do you want SEXTANTE to check that the external application is
correctly installed and configured?". and in case it is not, tell the
user how to install it.

I think this will avoid having users trying to run an algorithm that
is not prepared to be run. From all the questions and reports I get
about issues in SEXTANTE, some are caused by bugs in SEXTANTE or some
data problem, but most are due to wrong setting of external apps or,
in most cases, people not even knowing that you have to install them
separately. I do not know how to easily solve this, but it clearly
should be a priority...

Thanks again

2013/2/23 skampus <[hidden email]>:
> Hi victor, i agree with you.
> I do prefer to use sextante also for basic operations already present in
> qgis menu.
> It seems to me it is faster and i  more appreciate  temporary results
> instead of the duty of creating definitive layers.
> I don't know if it is correct, but could it be possible to include saga in
> osgeo installer package?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036354.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
_______________________________________________
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Phil Hess
In reply to this post by volaya
>>Mac might be the biggest problem here.

On Mac, SAGA should be distributed and installed as a normal OS X framework, the way GDAL and PROJ are done. Mac users already download and install the GDAL Complete.dmg package separately in order to run QGIS, so doing the same with a SAGA.dmg package would not be a problem.

Currently you have to build SAGA 2.1.0 yourself to use it on Mac, so it's a matter of someone creating the framework package and making it available somewhere. It's also possible to create a package that installs saga_cmd and the SAGA libraries in the standard Unix locations (/usr/local/bin, etc.), but the Mac way would be to place them in a framework instead.

http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/saga-gis/wiki/Compiling%20SAGA%20on%20Mac%20OS%20X

I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing "psycopg2" error message. This is not a standard Python package on Mac. Probably installing this psycopg2 would be a bigger issue than installing SAGA. It looks as though there are two ways to do it: compile it from terminal command line or install via fink or MacPorts - neither of these is likely to be something a non-developer QGIS user would be comfortable doing.

Thanks.

-Phil
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Phil Hess
>>I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing "psycopg2" error message.
>>This is not a standard Python package on Mac.

I see now that psycopg2 is also provided as a Mac package here:

http://www.kyngchaos.com/software/python

Installing Psycopg2-2.4.5-2.dmg allows the SEXTANTE installation to complete successfully.

However, SEXTANTE doesn't seem to know about my SAGA:

"It seems that SAGA is not correctly installed in your system.
Please install it before running SAGA algorithms."

Thanks.

-Phil
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

volaya
Phil

Thanks for you help. Unfortunately, I do not use Mac and cannot test
SEXTANTE in Mac.

The psycopg library is used by algorithms connecting with PostGIS, and
I (wrongly) assumed it should be in all computers where QGIS is
installed. I will add some checking to ensure that it is found and, if
not, disable the corresponding algorithms but not the whole SEXTANTE
plugin

Regarding the error you see when executing SAGA, In Mac it is
performing the same check than in Linux, but it seems that it is not
working fine, even if SAGA is actually installed. Making SEXTANTE run
a small test algorithm and check the result sounds like a better
option, which would work for all OS's

Thanks again for your help.

Victor

2013/2/23 Phil Hess <[hidden email]>:

>>>I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing
> "psycopg2" error message.
>>>This is not a standard Python package on Mac.
>
> I see now that psycopg2 is also provided as a Mac package here:
>
> http://www.kyngchaos.com/software/python
>
> Installing Psycopg2-2.4.5-2.dmg allows the SEXTANTE installation to complete
> successfully.
>
> However, SEXTANTE doesn't seem to know about my SAGA:
>
> "It seems that SAGA is not correctly installed in your system.
> Please install it before running SAGA algorithms."
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Phil
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036389.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Tim Sutton-4
Hi

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Victor Olaya <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Phil
>
> Thanks for you help. Unfortunately, I do not use Mac and cannot test
> SEXTANTE in Mac.
>
> The psycopg library is used by algorithms connecting with PostGIS, and
> I (wrongly) assumed it should be in all computers where QGIS is
> installed. I will add some checking to ensure that it is found and, if
> not, disable the corresponding algorithms but not the whole SEXTANTE
> plugin
>
> Regarding the error you see when executing SAGA, In Mac it is
> performing the same check than in Linux, but it seems that it is not
> working fine, even if SAGA is actually installed. Making SEXTANTE run
> a small test algorithm and check the result sounds like a better
> option, which would work for all OS's
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
> Victor
>
> 2013/2/23 Phil Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>>I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing
>> "psycopg2" error message.
>>>>This is not a standard Python package on Mac.
>>
>> I see now that psycopg2 is also provided as a Mac package here:
>>
>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/software/python
>>
>> Installing Psycopg2-2.4.5-2.dmg allows the SEXTANTE installation to complete
>> successfully.
>>
>> However, SEXTANTE doesn't seem to know about my SAGA:
>>
>> "It seems that SAGA is not correctly installed in your system.
>> Please install it before running SAGA algorithms."
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036389.html
>> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer

I would be very much in favour of shipping SAGA bundled in with the
OSX and Windows standalone installers. It creates a much better 'out
of the box' experience and works better in environments where there is
little / no internet available.

Regards

Tim

--
Tim Sutton - QGIS Project Steering Committee Member (Release  Manager)
==============================================
Please do not email me off-list with technical
support questions. Using the lists will gain
more exposure for your issues and the knowledge
surrounding your issue will be shared with all.

Visit http://linfiniti.com to find out about:
 * QGIS programming and support services
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Irc: timlinux on #qgis at freenode.net
==============================================
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

volaya
I agree that Linux should maybe be considered differently than Windows
and Mac OSX, and that in these two the experience would be much better
and much easier for the average user (that's basically why I was
proposing this) if SAGa is included by default.

In case we decide to move in this direction, what is needed before we
can package SAGA with QGIS? I guess some expertise in Mac OS is
needed, and some extra testing for SEXTANTE. The Windows part is much
easier, since, as I metioned, there's nothing to do but copying the
executable in a folder know by SEXTANTE.

Cheers
Victor

2013/2/24 Tim Sutton <[hidden email]>:

> Hi
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Victor Olaya <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Phil
>>
>> Thanks for you help. Unfortunately, I do not use Mac and cannot test
>> SEXTANTE in Mac.
>>
>> The psycopg library is used by algorithms connecting with PostGIS, and
>> I (wrongly) assumed it should be in all computers where QGIS is
>> installed. I will add some checking to ensure that it is found and, if
>> not, disable the corresponding algorithms but not the whole SEXTANTE
>> plugin
>>
>> Regarding the error you see when executing SAGA, In Mac it is
>> performing the same check than in Linux, but it seems that it is not
>> working fine, even if SAGA is actually installed. Making SEXTANTE run
>> a small test algorithm and check the result sounds like a better
>> option, which would work for all OS's
>>
>> Thanks again for your help.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> 2013/2/23 Phil Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing
>>> "psycopg2" error message.
>>>>>This is not a standard Python package on Mac.
>>>
>>> I see now that psycopg2 is also provided as a Mac package here:
>>>
>>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/software/python
>>>
>>> Installing Psycopg2-2.4.5-2.dmg allows the SEXTANTE installation to complete
>>> successfully.
>>>
>>> However, SEXTANTE doesn't seem to know about my SAGA:
>>>
>>> "It seems that SAGA is not correctly installed in your system.
>>> Please install it before running SAGA algorithms."
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> -Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036389.html
>>> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
> I would be very much in favour of shipping SAGA bundled in with the
> OSX and Windows standalone installers. It creates a much better 'out
> of the box' experience and works better in environments where there is
> little / no internet available.
>
> Regards
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Sutton - QGIS Project Steering Committee Member (Release  Manager)
> ==============================================
> Please do not email me off-list with technical
> support questions. Using the lists will gain
> more exposure for your issues and the knowledge
> surrounding your issue will be shared with all.
>
> Visit http://linfiniti.com to find out about:
>  * QGIS programming and support services
>  * Mapserver and PostGIS based hosting plans
>  * FOSS Consulting Services
> Skype: timlinux
> Irc: timlinux on #qgis at freenode.net
> ==============================================
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

William Kyngesburye
In reply to this post by Tim Sutton-4
A few questions/comments, and a big problem.  (I've been sortof paying attention to all the SEXTANTE discussion and development)

Is saga a requirement for sextante or optional?

Saga appears to be an application on its own, with an optional Python interface.  I'd rather not bundle this IN the QGIS app, though it would be OK bundled alongside QGIS in the distribution.

Does sextante use only the Python interface to Saga, or does it also run Saga command line tools and/or Saga GUI tools?

The Problem: Saga needs wxWidgets.  QGIS runs 64bit on OS X.  To get a 64bit wxWidgets on OS X you need to use the Cocoa APIs.  Support for this is only in wx 2.9 (in development, but mostly complete).  The latest stable Saga, 2.0.8, does not support wx 2.9.  The dev Saga sources (2.1) support wx 2.9, but it's only a beta at this time (I need to figure out the autotools stuff to generate configure to be able to try it).

On Feb 24, 2013, at 7:32 AM, Tim Sutton wrote:

> Hi
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Victor Olaya <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Phil
>>
>> Thanks for you help. Unfortunately, I do not use Mac and cannot test
>> SEXTANTE in Mac.
>>
>> The psycopg library is used by algorithms connecting with PostGIS, and
>> I (wrongly) assumed it should be in all computers where QGIS is
>> installed. I will add some checking to ensure that it is found and, if
>> not, disable the corresponding algorithms but not the whole SEXTANTE
>> plugin
>>
>> Regarding the error you see when executing SAGA, In Mac it is
>> performing the same check than in Linux, but it seems that it is not
>> working fine, even if SAGA is actually installed. Making SEXTANTE run
>> a small test algorithm and check the result sounds like a better
>> option, which would work for all OS's
>>
>> Thanks again for your help.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> 2013/2/23 Phil Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing
>>> "psycopg2" error message.
>>>>> This is not a standard Python package on Mac.
>>>
>>> I see now that psycopg2 is also provided as a Mac package here:
>>>
>>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/software/python
>>>
>>> Installing Psycopg2-2.4.5-2.dmg allows the SEXTANTE installation to complete
>>> successfully.
>>>
>>> However, SEXTANTE doesn't seem to know about my SAGA:
>>>
>>> "It seems that SAGA is not correctly installed in your system.
>>> Please install it before running SAGA algorithms."
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> -Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036389.html
>>> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
> I would be very much in favour of shipping SAGA bundled in with the
> OSX and Windows standalone installers. It creates a much better 'out
> of the box' experience and works better in environments where there is
> little / no internet available.
>
> Regards
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Sutton - QGIS Project Steering Committee Member (Release  Manager)
> ==============================================
> Please do not email me off-list with technical
> support questions. Using the lists will gain
> more exposure for your issues and the knowledge
> surrounding your issue will be shared with all.
>
> Visit http://linfiniti.com to find out about:
> * QGIS programming and support services
> * Mapserver and PostGIS based hosting plans
> * FOSS Consulting Services
> Skype: timlinux
> Irc: timlinux on #qgis at freenode.net
> ==============================================
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-----
William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
http://www.kyngchaos.com/

"This is a question about the past, is it? ... How can I tell that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"

- The Ruler of the Universe


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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

volaya
> Is saga a requirement for sextante or optional?

SAGA is optional, but adding it makes a huge difference, so somehow,
you can say it is not so optional if you want to do serious work with
SEXTANTE.

>
> Does sextante use only the Python interface to Saga, or does it also run Saga command line tools and/or Saga GUI tools?
>

SEXTANTE does not use the Python interface. It only calls SAGA on the
command line. GUI tools are not used at all, and there would be no
need to include them.

> The Problem: Saga needs wxWidgets.  QGIS runs 64bit on OS X.  To get a 64bit wxWidgets on OS X you need to use the Cocoa APIs.  Support for this is only in wx 2.9 (in development, but mostly complete).  The latest stable Saga, 2.0.8, does not support wx 2.9.  The dev Saga sources (2.1) support wx 2.9, but it's only a beta at this time (I need to figure out the autotools stuff to generate configure to be able to try it).

The GUI tools are not needed, so, if the command line tool does not
use wxWidgets, that wouldn't be a problem. But I think it might use
some non-GUI classes from wxWidgets, we should check it

Cheers
Victor
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Phil Hess
>>But I think it might use some non-GUI classes from wxWidgets, we should check it

Correct. saga_cmd and the SAGA libraries are linked against wxWidgets, just as QGIS and its framework libraries are linked against Qt - there's no getting away from wxWidgets with SAGA, just as there's no getting away from Qt with QGIS.

I looked into why SEXTANTE's shelling to saga_cmd fails. For some reason, the path that QGIS's Python environment sees does not include /usr/local/bin, whereas a simple Python script like this does include it and shelling works fine:

import os, subprocess
print os.environ['PATH']
subprocess.Popen("saga_cmd", shell=True)

I don't know why this path is different in QGIS than in Python launched from a Terminal command line, but that's the fix: either add the full path to saga_cmd or figure out a way to get the full environment path.

Thanks.

-Phil
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Sharpie
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Phil Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't know why this path is different in QGIS than in Python launched from
a Terminal command line,

If you are talking about OS X, then `.app` bundles don't inherit environment variables from the same places Terminal apps do (i.e they don't pay attention to `~/.profile` and such). There is a good answer on StackOverflow that runs through the possible places to set environment variables:


-Charlie

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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Phil Hess
>>If you are talking about OS X, then `.app` bundles don't inherit environment variables from the same places Terminal apps do

You are correct, sir, although in testing I see that it's not really a difference between .app GUI apps and console apps, but rather how an app is launched. So starting QGIS by double-clicking QGIS.app means that /usr/local/bin is not in the env. path, but starting it from the Terminal like this means that /usr/local/bin _is_ in the path:

open /Applications/QGIS.app

Another fix might be for a future SAGA package to create a symlink to saga_cmd in /usr/bin - that's always on the env. path regardless of how QGIS is launched.

Thanks.

-Phil
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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Alex Mandel-2
In reply to this post by volaya
The procedure for windows I would use...
Add it to osgeo4w as a separate package. Change the QGIS express
installer rules to include it. After that we can easily include it in
the standalone installer which is repackaged from osgeo4w.

Thanks,
Alex


On 02/24/2013 05:38 AM, Victor Olaya wrote:

> I agree that Linux should maybe be considered differently than Windows
> and Mac OSX, and that in these two the experience would be much better
> and much easier for the average user (that's basically why I was
> proposing this) if SAGa is included by default.
>
> In case we decide to move in this direction, what is needed before we
> can package SAGA with QGIS? I guess some expertise in Mac OS is
> needed, and some extra testing for SEXTANTE. The Windows part is much
> easier, since, as I metioned, there's nothing to do but copying the
> executable in a folder know by SEXTANTE.
>
> Cheers
> Victor
>
> 2013/2/24 Tim Sutton <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Victor Olaya <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Thanks for you help. Unfortunately, I do not use Mac and cannot test
>>> SEXTANTE in Mac.
>>>
>>> The psycopg library is used by algorithms connecting with PostGIS, and
>>> I (wrongly) assumed it should be in all computers where QGIS is
>>> installed. I will add some checking to ensure that it is found and, if
>>> not, disable the corresponding algorithms but not the whole SEXTANTE
>>> plugin
>>>
>>> Regarding the error you see when executing SAGA, In Mac it is
>>> performing the same check than in Linux, but it seems that it is not
>>> working fine, even if SAGA is actually installed. Making SEXTANTE run
>>> a small test algorithm and check the result sounds like a better
>>> option, which would work for all OS's
>>>
>>> Thanks again for your help.
>>>
>>> Victor
>>>
>>> 2013/2/23 Phil Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> I tried installing SEXTANTE just now on a Mac but it crashed with a missing
>>>> "psycopg2" error message.
>>>>>> This is not a standard Python package on Mac.
>>>>
>>>> I see now that psycopg2 is also provided as a Mac package here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/software/python
>>>>
>>>> Installing Psycopg2-2.4.5-2.dmg allows the SEXTANTE installation to complete
>>>> successfully.
>>>>
>>>> However, SEXTANTE doesn't seem to know about my SAGA:
>>>>
>>>> "It seems that SAGA is not correctly installed in your system.
>>>> Please install it before running SAGA algorithms."
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> -Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/Shipping-SAGA-with-QGIS-tp5036274p5036389.html
>>>> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>
>> I would be very much in favour of shipping SAGA bundled in with the
>> OSX and Windows standalone installers. It creates a much better 'out
>> of the box' experience and works better in environments where there is
>> little / no internet available.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> --
>> Tim Sutton - QGIS Project Steering Committee Member (Release  Manager)
>> ==============================================
>> Please do not email me off-list with technical
>> support questions. Using the lists will gain
>> more exposure for your issues and the knowledge
>> surrounding your issue will be shared with all.
>>
>> Visit http://linfiniti.com to find out about:
>>  * QGIS programming and support services
>>  * Mapserver and PostGIS based hosting plans
>>  * FOSS Consulting Services
>> Skype: timlinux
>> Irc: timlinux on #qgis at freenode.net
>> ==============================================
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>

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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

Sharpie
In reply to this post by Phil Hess
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>If you are talking about OS X, then `.app` bundles don't inherit
environment variables from the same places Terminal apps do

You are correct, sir, although in testing I see that it's not really a
difference between .app GUI apps and console apps,

Bad wording on my part. The difference I was pointing out is indeed between "stuff that is launched through the desktop, including methods like double click" and "stuff that is launched through the command line, including methods like running open". 

-Charlie

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Re: Shipping SAGA with QGIS

William Kyngesburye
In reply to this post by Phil Hess
No, putting symlinks (or anything) in /usr/* (other than /usr/local of course) is bad form on OS X.  /usr is for what Apple puts there.  User-installed stuff should be installed in /usr/local.  (Unfortunately, Qt does put some tools in /usr/bin, oh well).  The default PATH on OSX does include /usr/local/bin, for the shell at least, maybe not for apps.

There is a new feature in QGIS to set environment variables explicitly designed for stuff like this.  But it's not in 1.8, so it won't help sextante there.  Maybe to be sure, sextante needs its own env prefs, like the GDAL tools has.

On Feb 24, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Phil Hess wrote:

>>> If you are talking about OS X, then `.app` bundles don't inherit
> environment variables from the same places Terminal apps do
>
> You are correct, sir, although in testing I see that it's not really a
> difference between .app GUI apps and console apps, but rather how an app is
> launched. So starting QGIS by double-clicking QGIS.app means that
> /usr/local/bin is not in the env. path, but starting it from the Terminal
> like this means that /usr/local/bin _is_ in the path:
>
> open /Applications/QGIS.app
>
> Another fix might be for a future SAGA package to create a symlink to
> saga_cmd in /usr/bin - that's always on the env. path regardless of how QGIS
> is launched.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Phil

-----
William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
http://www.kyngchaos.com/

"I ache, therefore I am.  Or in my case - I am, therefore I ache."

- Marvin


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