Realease and blockers

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Realease and blockers

pcav
Hi all.
The new QGIS version will be released very soon. There are still 58 blocking issues,
growing. Some of them are quite nasty. I urge everybody, and especially those who use
QGIS in large organization, saving tons of money previously spent in licences, to
quickly invest a fraction of these savings into fixing some of these.
With >1 million users, this seems a feasible target.
Thanks.
--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
Corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
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Re: Realease and blockers

Régis Haubourg
Hi Paolo,
I'm still searching a way to sponsor you, and have good hopes we will find a way. but it won't make it for 2.4.
And we will probably be finding a solution only available for my organization. I would have prefered to find a way that other public users in France could repeat, so that we start a massive movement.
Any feedback from current european sponsors is more than welcome.
Régis
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Re: Realease and blockers

Régis Haubourg
BTW, the very short release cycle is really complicated for us. Deploying prod version and testing new versions periods overshoot here. I'm alone on that topic, and partial time only. Having longer release candidate period, and a 6 months release cycle could help for me.  
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Re: Realease and blockers

nagellette
In reply to this post by Régis Haubourg
Hi Paolo,

I dont think that I can help on any developing issue with my insufficient knowledge but I can help on any testing or similar things if needed.

Regards,
Necip.


On 6 June 2014 12:33, Régis Haubourg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Paolo,
I'm still searching a way to sponsor you, and have good hopes we will find a
way. but it won't make it for 2.4.
And we will probably be finding a solution only available for my
organization. I would have prefered to find a way that other public users in
France could repeat, so that we start a massive movement.
Any feedback from current european sponsors is more than welcome.
Régis




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Re: Realease and blockers

Andreas Neumann-4
In reply to this post by Régis Haubourg
Hi,

I kind of agree. I also think the one month testing phase is too short
to properly deal with all of the bugs.

Maybe a six month release cycle with 4 month development and 2 month
testing would be more useful in the future.

Furthermore, we would probably need at least one bugfix release.

But I know you have discussed this back and forth ... and there is no
single solution that fits for everyone.

---------

BTW: I believe our finances would allow to again sponsor 1 week of paid
bug fixing from the QGIS funds. Like with the past two releases. Has the
PSC discussed this?

Andreas

Am 06.06.2014 09:36, schrieb Régis Haubourg:

> BTW, the very short release cycle is really complicated for us. Deploying
> prod version and testing new versions periods overshoot here. I'm alone on
> that topic, and partial time only. Having longer release candidate period,
> and a 6 months release cycle could help for me.  
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/Realease-and-blockers-tp5144366p5144375.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>

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Re: Realease and blockers

pcav
In reply to this post by Régis Haubourg
Il 06/06/2014 11:36, Régis Haubourg ha scritto:
> BTW, the very short release cycle is really complicated for us. Deploying
> prod version and testing new versions periods overshoot here. I'm alone on
> that topic, and partial time only. Having longer release candidate period,
> and a 6 months release cycle could help for me.  

I understand this. However, you are free to upgrade only if and when you have time
for it, e.g. skipping every second version will give you an 8 months time frame.
IMHO the fixed release cycle will help people planning in advance (yes, also the
investment for bugfixing :) ).
All the best, and thanks for your interest.
--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
Corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
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Re: Realease and blockers

pcav
In reply to this post by Andreas Neumann-4
Il 06/06/2014 11:42, Andreas Neumann ha scritto:

> But I know you have discussed this back and forth ... and there is no
> single solution that fits for everyone.

yes, that's the point IMHO.

> BTW: I believe our finances would allow to again sponsor 1 week of paid
> bug fixing from the QGIS funds. Like with the past two releases. Has the
> PSC discussed this?

not yet. I'd be in favour of this, even though I'd like to see a more direct
involvement of power users.

all the best.
--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
Corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
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Re: Realease and blockers

Nathan Woodrow
In reply to this post by pcav

The longer release time isn't for users its for us devs. After the feature freeze is lifted features start going in adding more bugs. So a longer release cycle with 2 months bug fix would allow for more polish.

This release was of course a major change adding some big stuff maybe we just expand this one?

On Jun 6, 2014 7:47 PM, "Paolo Cavallini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Il 06/06/2014 11:36, Régis Haubourg ha scritto:
> BTW, the very short release cycle is really complicated for us. Deploying
> prod version and testing new versions periods overshoot here. I'm alone on
> that topic, and partial time only. Having longer release candidate period,
> and a 6 months release cycle could help for me.

I understand this. However, you are free to upgrade only if and when you have time
for it, e.g. skipping every second version will give you an 8 months time frame.
IMHO the fixed release cycle will help people planning in advance (yes, also the
investment for bugfixing :) ).
All the best, and thanks for your interest.
--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
Corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
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Re: Realease and blockers

Vincent Picavet (ml)
In reply to this post by pcav
Hello,

Le vendredi 6 juin 2014 11:08:57, Paolo Cavallini a écrit :
> The new QGIS version will be released very soon. There are still 58
> blocking issues, growing. Some of them are quite nasty. I urge everybody,
> and especially those who use QGIS in large organization, saving tons of
> money previously spent in licences, to quickly invest a fraction of these
> savings into fixing some of these. With >1 million users, this seems a
> feasible target.

Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging testing ?

I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We really
should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug reporting. As
for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug reporting.

What about modifying the RCs so that :
* we have a bug report feature in the help menu, allowing to create an osgeo
user, search for bug and report if not found ?
* we add a splash-screen or a first pop-up window stating clearly that there is
a need for bugfixes, and therefore a strong and quick need for funding ?
Maybe even adding links to supporting companies as stated on the website, so
that users/clients can contact them directly, in addition to the sponsoring
informations ?
* we add to this popup a big "donate now" button linking to paypal / flattr or
whatever simple system for micro-donation, and a bitcoin address
* we propose to optionnally subscribe to a specific qgis-newsletter mailing
list, where we can reach our userbase with RC download links, and funding
requests (with a privacy protection + no spam statement)

This is a bit late for 2.4 of course, but this is IMHO a way to enlarge our
tester base, as well as our funders.
What we need is not a different release cycle, but more education. Adopting  
more push-oriented communication methods seams the way to go.

My 2 cents,

Vincent
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Re: Realease and blockers

Nyall Dawson


On 06/06/2014 8:20 pm, "Vincent Picavet" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging testing ?
>
> I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We really
> should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug reporting. As
> for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug reporting.
>

I don't think the issue is just bug reporting for a RC though. As mentioned, we've already got a very long blocker list, which is still growing.

I think a bigger issue is development resources and developer's time availability. At the current rate of bug closing we're very likely to still have a large number of these issues outstanding at the end of the month.

I'm in favor of a longer freeze period for next release.

Nyall


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Re: Realease and blockers

Vincent Picavet (ml)
Hello,

Le vendredi 6 juin 2014 12:30:23, Nyall Dawson a écrit :

> On 06/06/2014 8:20 pm, "Vincent Picavet" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging
> testing ?
>
> > I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We
> > really should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug
> reporting. As for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug
> reporting.
>
> I don't think the issue is just bug reporting for a RC though. As
> mentioned, we've already got a very long blocker list, which is still
> growing.
> I think a bigger issue is development resources and developer's time
> availability. At the current rate of bug closing we're very likely to still
> have a large number of these issues outstanding at the end of the month.

More bug reports, bug comments and better bug reports is already a lot of
developer's time saved.
Having more testers (and regular testers) is as important as having developers
to fix bugs.

My proposal was also more oriented towards getting users involved in all ways,
and especially funding at Feature Freeze time.
Getting them to download, install and test more thoroughly the RCs, and using
this media to incent them to fund the software do contribute to more
developers time.

> I'm in favor of a longer freeze period for next release.

I am not sure that more non-paid developer time is a sustainable model.

Or it is a matter of going from a FF development model, to a more formal peer-
review commitfest model ( like http://rhaas.blogspot.fr/2011/03/commitfests-
and-meritocracy.html ).

There are many other ways to reduce bugs even before reaching feature freeze,
some of them already discussed thoroughly here, I am just trying to find some
easy, reachable and efficient means, which can of course be complementary to
other means.

Vincent
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Re: Realease and blockers

Alexander Bruy
In reply to this post by Vincent Picavet (ml)
2014-06-06 13:16 GMT+03:00 Vincent Picavet <[hidden email]>:
> Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging testing ?
>
> I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We really
> should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug reporting. As
> for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug reporting.

We already have a big banner at main page about RC and testing. Seems most
users don't visit main page too often to notice it.
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Re: Realease and blockers

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by Vincent Picavet (ml)


On 06/06/2014 8:51 pm, "Vincent Picavet" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> More bug reports, bug comments and better bug reports is already a lot of
> developer's time saved.
> Having more testers (and regular testers) is as important as having developers
> to fix bugs.

Sorry if I didn't word my original reply very well - I didn't mean to imply bug reports aren't important or valued! I'm just unsure how we can clear our current queue in time for release as it stands currently...

Nyall


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Re: Realease and blockers

Tim Sutton-4
In reply to this post by Andreas Neumann-4
Hi


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Andreas Neumann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I kind of agree. I also think the one month testing phase is too short
to properly deal with all of the bugs.

Maybe a six month release cycle with 4 month development and 2 month
testing would be more useful in the future.

Furthermore, we would probably need at least one bugfix release.

But I know you have discussed this back and forth ... and there is no
single solution that fits for everyone.

---------

BTW: I believe our finances would allow to again sponsor 1 week of paid
bug fixing from the QGIS funds. Like with the past two releases. Has the
PSC discussed this?

Not yet but we can table it in our PSC meeting tonight. And yes there is no single release cycle that will keep everyone happy. The other suggestion we had once was to make every third (or other increment) release purely a bug fix release. Those enterprise orientated folks could hold out for those instead of doing incremental upgrades.

Regards

Tim
 
Andreas

Am 06.06.2014 09:36, schrieb Régis Haubourg:
> BTW, the very short release cycle is really complicated for us. Deploying
> prod version and testing new versions periods overshoot here. I'm alone on
> that topic, and partial time only. Having longer release candidate period,
> and a 6 months release cycle could help for me.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/Realease-and-blockers-tp5144366p5144375.html
> Sent from the Quantum GIS - Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>

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==============================================
Please do not email me off-list with technical
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Re: Realease and blockers

Matthias Kuhn
In reply to this post by Vincent Picavet (ml)
While testing and reporting is important without a doubt, the currently
outstanding issues could be fixed easily by the end of the month as soon
as resources are available.

The main point is, that we should start improving where there is the
biggest effect - and that's paid bugfixing time. There are some
extremely capable and effective core devs available for this job as has
been proven in the past.

That means: go out, tell your neighbours and social media buddies and
customers about the RC and testing. But if you want the bugs they report
to be fixed, make sure that there's somebody taking care of them. The
main problems normally are not the bugs not found while testing, but the
ones not fixed before the release. This in turn also means that I don't
think a two months bugfixing period will improve a lot. If there's two
months with developers spending time on other projects because there's
no funding available for bugfixing we haven't won anything.

Regards,
Matthias
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Re: Realease and blockers

pcav
In reply to this post by Tim Sutton-4
Il 06/06/2014 13:46, Tim Sutton ha scritto:

> Not yet but we can table it in our PSC meeting tonight. And yes there is no single
> release cycle that will keep everyone happy. The other suggestion we had once was to
> make every third (or other increment) release purely a bug fix release. Those
> enterprise orientated folks could hold out for those instead of doing incremental
> upgrades.

Yet another interesting option, already discussed, is to maintain a stable release,
backporting fixes to it. Some work has already gone in that direction, merging and
coordinating them would be a major improvements IMHO.
I personally think this effort should be funded by one or more of the many big users
we increasingly have, and cannot rely on our efforts only.
All the best.
--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
Corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
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Re: Realease and blockers

pcav
In reply to this post by Matthias Kuhn
Il 06/06/2014 13:57, Matthias Kuhn ha scritto:

> That means: go out, tell your neighbours and social media buddies and
> customers about the RC and testing. But if you want the bugs they report
> to be fixed, make sure that there's somebody taking care of them. The
> main problems normally are not the bugs not found while testing, but the
> ones not fixed before the release. This in turn also means that I don't
> think a two months bugfixing period will improve a lot. If there's two
> months with developers spending time on other projects because there's
> no funding available for bugfixing we haven't won anything.

agreed. please spread this word to users as much as possible, using the MLs, SNs, and
any other possible medium.
that was the idea behind my post starting this thread.
thanks.

--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
Corsi QGIS e PostGIS: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
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Re: Realease and blockers

Vincent Picavet (ml)
In reply to this post by Alexander Bruy
Hi,

Le vendredi 6 juin 2014 13:34:12, Alexander Bruy a écrit :

> 2014-06-06 13:16 GMT+03:00 Vincent Picavet <[hidden email]>:
> > Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging
> > testing ?
> >
> > I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We
> > really should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug
> > reporting. As for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug
> > reporting.
>
> We already have a big banner at main page about RC and testing. Seems most
> users don't visit main page too often to notice it.

I tried with a "standard" user yesterday, watching him use the site to get
qgis, and it was still _very_ complicated for him. He expected to click on a
"QGIS 2.4 preview download" button and the download to begin immediatly, which
is far from happening.

Instead, the small RC link leads to a page with a lot of links, he had
difficulties to find the preview release (not knowing what a "release candidate"
is), hesitating with osgeo4w download, then being redirected once again on the
same page, lost in the web page, finally finding a small link to a dull page
listing a lot of files (what the hell is a md5sum file ?? what is this 2.3
version ?? where is the preview ?), of which he finally chose a random exe and
installed it. Even I was totally lost trying to get the right file.

I think we can do much better.

Then it is a matter of advertising the preview at large : official "call for
testing" from qgis project on osgeo mailing lists, twitter, linkedin, and if
possible on a qgis-news mailing list where we have gathered a lot of user
beforehand (with their approval of course).

Vincent


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Re: Realease and blockers

Anita Graser
In reply to this post by Alexander Bruy
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Alexander Bruy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2014-06-06 13:16 GMT+03:00 Vincent Picavet <[hidden email]>:
>> Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging testing ?
>>
>> I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We really
>> should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug reporting. As
>> for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug reporting.
>
> We already have a big banner at main page about RC and testing. Seems most
> users don't visit main page too often to notice it.

We've also advertised the release candidates quite heavily on Twitter.
I don't think there is much chance to reach those users which we
haven't reached so far.

Best wishes,
Anita





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Re: Realease and blockers

Nathan Woodrow
I have just written a blog post and added it to Twitter, Google+, Facebook.  I have also updated the banners on all those sites to show the RC banner.


- Nathan


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:27 PM, Anita Graser <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Alexander Bruy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2014-06-06 13:16 GMT+03:00 Vincent Picavet <[hidden email]>:
>> Could we make a more visible RC release on the website, encouraging testing ?
>>
>> I think that our user are not used yet to our new release cycle. We really
>> should educate them, and lower the barrier to RC testing and bug reporting. As
>> for now, even installing the RCs is complicated, so is bug reporting.
>
> We already have a big banner at main page about RC and testing. Seems most
> users don't visit main page too often to notice it.

We've also advertised the release candidates quite heavily on Twitter.
I don't think there is much chance to reach those users which we
haven't reached so far.

Best wishes,
Anita





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