Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
40 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

David Sampson
Also keep in mind, unlike windows specific applications many foss4g apps rely on shared libraries like OGR and back end DB's.

So the testing is not just of the application but also the libs and DB's.

A feature comparison is a good start and many masters projects have already done that as well as xcompare them to closed source desktop apps.

Cheers
------Original Message------
From: Paolo Cavallini
Sender: [hidden email]
To: OSGeo Discussions
ReplyTo: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?
Sent: Dec 20, 2009 5:15 AM


On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:59:32 +1100, Cameron Shorter
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Andrea,
> That looks like an excellent basis to start from.
>
> Were the results of the desktop comparison written up somewhere?
>
> While a feature comparison is valuable, the end user is also interested
> is other metrics which are harder to collect.

Hi Cameron.
Unfortunately we could not collect "hard" data about this, and frankly I
think this would be very difficult to do - a desktop is much more
subjective than a server. What is difficult for me can be easy for you,
etc.
Anyway, I think such a comparison is really necessary.
Ideas welcome.
All the best.
--
http://faunalia.it/pc
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

An interesting article about software licensing in the non-open source geospatial world

Schlagel, Joel D. IWR


http://www.thestreet.com/story/10640248/1/tech-rights-give-companies-upper-h
and.html



-joel

--

Joel D. Schlagel
US Army Engineer Institute for Water Resources

http://www.iwr.usace.army.mil/        email: [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

pcav
In reply to this post by David Sampson
[hidden email] ha scritto:
> A feature comparison is a good start and many masters projects have already done that as well as xcompare them to closed source desktop apps.
>  
Hi.
I only have seen a few, rather incomplete, comparisons: do you have
links for more? Thanks.
All the best.
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Markus Neteler
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Paolo Cavallini <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [hidden email] ha scritto:
>>
>> A feature comparison is a good start and many masters projects have
>> already done that as well as xcompare them to closed source desktop apps.
>>
> Hi.
> I only have seen a few, rather incomplete, comparisons: do you have links
> for more? Thanks.

Here's one:

http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/
An Overview of Free & Open Source Desktop GIS (FOS-GIS)
(along with two publications)

Markus
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Cameron Shorter
In reply to this post by pcav
A couple of links to reviews of desktop clients at:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Case_Studies#Review_of_Open_Source_Desktop_Clients

In particular Stefan's summary of clients is the best I've seen so far.
http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/ is quite comprehensive.

The steps I see toward kicking off a Desktop comparison at FOSS4G are:

1. One person to step forward and offer to drive the comparison through
to completion. (This can be a couple of people, but it usually starts
with one). Effectively act as a project coordinator, setting up wiki
pages, contacting potential parties, ensuring scope is capped. Paul
Ramsey, Andrea Aime and Jeff McKenna seemed to be the driving people
behind the WMS shootout. If you are reading this and think you might be
able to fill this role, then please speak up.

2. The key projects need to be contacted, and at least one volunteer
identified for each project. Ideally, there will be at least 3/4 of the
projects represented. Within a year or two, any potential gis desktop
user will start their search for clients by reviewing the results of the
Desktop shootout, so projects represented in the shootout will become
the dominant projects. (This is why it will be important for projects to
get on board)

3. Between the volunteers, and led by the coordinator, a set of
benchmark tests should be set up. This will probably include a core set
of tests that everyone should do relatively easily, and optional tests
that each project can do to show off their application.

4. Lots of hard work setting up environments, and running tests. Hence
it is important to start early if we want to have a good showing at foss4g.

5. Just before foss4g: Pens down, collate results, present.

Paolo Cavallini wrote:

> [hidden email] ha scritto:
>> A feature comparison is a good start and many masters projects have
>> already done that as well as xcompare them to closed source desktop
>> apps.
>>  
> Hi.
> I only have seen a few, rather incomplete, comparisons: do you have
> links for more? Thanks.
> All the best.
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


--
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
http://www.lisasoft.com

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

pcav
Cameron Shorter ha scritto:

> A couple of links to reviews of desktop clients at:
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Case_Studies#Review_of_Open_Source_Desktop_Clients 
>
>
> In particular Stefan's summary of clients is the best I've seen so far.
> http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/ is quite comprehensive.
>
> The steps I see toward kicking off a Desktop comparison at FOSS4G are:
>
> 1. One person to step forward and offer to drive the comparison
> through to completion. (This can be a couple of people, but it usually
> starts with one). Effectively act as a project coordinator, setting up
> wiki pages, contacting potential parties, ensuring scope is capped.
> Paul Ramsey, Andrea Aime and Jeff McKenna seemed to be the driving
> people behind the WMS shootout. If you are reading this and think you
> might be able to fill this role, then please speak up.
> ...
> 5. Just before foss4g: Pens down, collate results, present.
>
I think I can do something for QGIS, if I'm not left alone ;)

All the best.
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Paul Ramsey
In reply to this post by Cameron Shorter
Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
about ___, what I hate about____".

Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."

Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.

Works for almost any application category too.

P

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Cameron Shorter
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of links to reviews of desktop clients at:
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Case_Studies#Review_of_Open_Source_Desktop_Clients
>
> In particular Stefan's summary of clients is the best I've seen so far.
> http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/ is quite comprehensive.
>
> The steps I see toward kicking off a Desktop comparison at FOSS4G are:
>
> 1. One person to step forward and offer to drive the comparison through to
> completion. (This can be a couple of people, but it usually starts with
> one). Effectively act as a project coordinator, setting up wiki pages,
> contacting potential parties, ensuring scope is capped. Paul Ramsey, Andrea
> Aime and Jeff McKenna seemed to be the driving people behind the WMS
> shootout. If you are reading this and think you might be able to fill this
> role, then please speak up.
>
> 2. The key projects need to be contacted, and at least one volunteer
> identified for each project. Ideally, there will be at least 3/4 of the
> projects represented. Within a year or two, any potential gis desktop user
> will start their search for clients by reviewing the results of the Desktop
> shootout, so projects represented in the shootout will become the dominant
> projects. (This is why it will be important for projects to get on board)
>
> 3. Between the volunteers, and led by the coordinator, a set of benchmark
> tests should be set up. This will probably include a core set of tests that
> everyone should do relatively easily, and optional tests that each project
> can do to show off their application.
>
> 4. Lots of hard work setting up environments, and running tests. Hence it is
> important to start early if we want to have a good showing at foss4g.
>
> 5. Just before foss4g: Pens down, collate results, present.
>
> Paolo Cavallini wrote:
>>
>> [hidden email] ha scritto:
>>>
>>> A feature comparison is a good start and many masters projects have
>>> already done that as well as xcompare them to closed source desktop apps.
>>>
>>
>> Hi.
>> I only have seen a few, rather incomplete, comparisons: do you have links
>> for more? Thanks.
>> All the best.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> --
> Cameron Shorter
> Geospatial Systems Architect
> Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
> Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254
>
> Think Globally, Fix Locally
> Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
> http://www.lisasoft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

mentaer
Hei all,

thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for
remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.

I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison
thing is
a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of
tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?

So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases
first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a
section on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that just
most of the projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which
of course does not mean that such thing should not be presented - but it
must be focussed in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a
side note, I am not sure if measuring processing times makes sense
either, as GIS analysis feature sets are so different.

However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.

Two more notes:
- my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007), i.e.
need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into
account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards
the "average" GIS users).
- I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes
pdf can be downloaded from there.

cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
stefan

PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA
for Geomorphologic Analysis
http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf


Paul Ramsey schrieb:

> Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
> interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
> project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
> about ___, what I hate about____".
>
> Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
> Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
> Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."
>
> Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
> presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.
>
> Works for almost any application category too.
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

mentaer
In reply to this post by David Sampson
Hei all,

thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for
remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.

I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison
thing is
a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of
tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?

So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases
first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a
section on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that just
most of the projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which
of course does not mean that such thing should not be presented - but it
must be focussed in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a
side note, I am not sure if measuring processing times makes sense
either, as GIS analysis feature sets are so different.

However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.

Two more notes:
- my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007), i.e.
need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into
account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards
the "average" GIS users).
- I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes
pdf can be downloaded from there.

cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
stefan

PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA
for Geomorphologic Analysis
http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf


Paul Ramsey schrieb:

> Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
> interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
> project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
> about ___, what I hate about____".
>
> Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
> Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
> Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."
>
> Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
> presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.
>
> Works for almost any application category too.
>

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Brian Russo
In reply to this post by mentaer
I think a more interesting presentation would be why there are so many desktop GIS packages, the consequent pros/cons, and if/how efforts could be consolidated.

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Stefan Steiniger <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hei all,

thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.

I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison thing is
a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?

So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a section on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that just most of the projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which of course does not mean that such thing should not be presented - but it must be focussed in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a side note, I am not sure if measuring processing times makes sense either, as GIS analysis feature sets are so different.

However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.

Two more notes:
- my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007), i.e. need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards the "average" GIS users).
- I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes
pdf can be downloaded from there.

cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
stefan

PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA for Geomorphologic Analysis
http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf


Paul Ramsey schrieb:
Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
about ___, what I hate about____".

Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."

Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.

Works for almost any application category too.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

mentaer
mhm.. I like that idea (and also have some answers - that I got from the
iGeoDesktop Crew and OrbisGIS, two pretty new Desktop GIS).

but here the question: is it as valuable for the end user? or rather
"our" thing.

Brian Russo schrieb:
> I think a more interesting presentation would be why there are so many
> desktop GIS packages, the consequent pros/cons, and if/how efforts could
> be consolidated.
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Paul Ramsey
In reply to this post by Brian Russo
I'll do that talk, if there's really interest in it, but it has
nothing to do with technology or desktops, it's sociology and
psychology. And no, efforts cannot "be consolidated" (active
intervention) they "may consolidate" (natural progression).

P.

- Why? "Because, we felt like it, and we knew better."
- Pros and cons? Weighted in favor of the

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Brian Russo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think a more interesting presentation would be why there are so many
> desktop GIS packages, the consequent pros/cons, and if/how efforts could be
> consolidated.
>
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Stefan Steiniger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hei all,
>>
>> thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for
>> remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.
>>
>> I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison
>> thing is
>> a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
>> b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of
>> tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?
>>
>> So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases
>> first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a section
>> on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that just most of the
>> projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which of course does
>> not mean that such thing should not be presented - but it must be focussed
>> in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a side note, I am not
>> sure if measuring processing times makes sense either, as GIS analysis
>> feature sets are so different.
>>
>> However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.
>>
>> Two more notes:
>> - my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007), i.e.
>> need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into
>> account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards the
>> "average" GIS users).
>> - I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
>> http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes
>> pdf can be downloaded from there.
>>
>> cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
>> stefan
>>
>> PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA
>> for Geomorphologic Analysis
>> http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf
>>
>>
>> Paul Ramsey schrieb:
>>>
>>> Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
>>> interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
>>> project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
>>> about ___, what I hate about____".
>>>
>>> Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
>>> Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
>>> Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."
>>>
>>> Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
>>> presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.
>>>
>>> Works for almost any application category too.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Brian Russo
You're absolutely right, pretend I said collaborate instead of consolidate.

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Paul Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'll do that talk, if there's really interest in it, but it has
nothing to do with technology or desktops, it's sociology and
psychology. And no, efforts cannot "be consolidated" (active
intervention) they "may consolidate" (natural progression).

P.

- Why? "Because, we felt like it, and we knew better."
- Pros and cons? Weighted in favor of the

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Brian Russo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think a more interesting presentation would be why there are so many
> desktop GIS packages, the consequent pros/cons, and if/how efforts could be
> consolidated.
>
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Stefan Steiniger <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hei all,
>>
>> thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for
>> remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.
>>
>> I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison
>> thing is
>> a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
>> b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of
>> tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?
>>
>> So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases
>> first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a section
>> on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that just most of the
>> projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which of course does
>> not mean that such thing should not be presented - but it must be focussed
>> in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a side note, I am not
>> sure if measuring processing times makes sense either, as GIS analysis
>> feature sets are so different.
>>
>> However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.
>>
>> Two more notes:
>> - my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007), i.e.
>> need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into
>> account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards the
>> "average" GIS users).
>> - I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
>> http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes
>> pdf can be downloaded from there.
>>
>> cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
>> stefan
>>
>> PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA
>> for Geomorphologic Analysis
>> http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf
>>
>>
>> Paul Ramsey schrieb:
>>>
>>> Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
>>> interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
>>> project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
>>> about ___, what I hate about____".
>>>
>>> Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
>>> Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
>>> Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."
>>>
>>> Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
>>> presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.
>>>
>>> Works for almost any application category too.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Andrea Antonello
In reply to this post by mentaer
When I started organising the Italian Desktop comparison, I tried to
involve both the community of developers and users.

Regarding developers, you might remember an email asking the QGis and
gvSig for a first meeting in Sydney to which I got no answer. So
nothing happened from that side.
Also as much as I find the idea of people getting users of different
GIS cool, I think that might end in being too much efforth people
would like to put in.
Also note that all of the presenters came with the latest versions of
their software, straight out of the svn or even not yet in svn :) So
probably they all will want to show the latest thing they have on.

Regarding the user community, I got a couple of requests, but they
were more on what the GIS can do and not benchmarking or so. Most of
the people that contacted me were from public administrations that had
to think about migrating, so they would have loved to find a GIS that
could fullfill all their ArcView requirements. It came up to things
like: can I print A0?, can I do a table join?

Andrea


On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Stefan Steiniger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> mhm.. I like that idea (and also have some answers - that I got from the
> iGeoDesktop Crew and OrbisGIS, two pretty new Desktop GIS).
>
> but here the question: is it as valuable for the end user? or rather "our"
> thing.
>
> Brian Russo schrieb:
>>
>> I think a more interesting presentation would be why there are so many
>> desktop GIS packages, the consequent pros/cons, and if/how efforts could be
>> consolidated.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: An interesting article about software licensing in the non-open source geospatial world

Frank Warmerdam
In reply to this post by Schlagel, Joel D. IWR
Schlagel, Joel D. IWR wrote:
>
> http://www.thestreet.com/story/10640248/1/tech-rights-give-companies-upper-h
> and.html

Joel,

A lot of this article seems to be a contract dispute rather than a software
licensing dispute.  An interesting point is that if Netezza had secured
the software from Intelligent Integration Systems under an open source
license, they would have been able to port it to their new architecture
on their own.

Sometimes I hear folks complain about vague risks of using FOSS.  What is
amazing is how billion dollar organizations will put themselves in great
strategic jeopardy through dependencies on other organizations with only
unclear and uncertain contracts and some hope for goodwill to protect
themselves.

Building on software distributed under well understood and relatively
unrestrictive open source licenses can help a great deal.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | Geospatial Programmer for Rent

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Simon Cropper
In reply to this post by mentaer
I agree with Stefan.

I have found comparison tables of little use as the compiler has to summarize what is probably quite complex routines. They rarely give a potential user like myself the complete picture.

My view has been that the only way to evaluate the usefulness of a program is to use it on actual data trying to do actual things.

I have tried multiple OS GIS packages and they all do different things in different ways. Some useful some novel (to me).

What really counts is if you can use one program to complete your normal workflow without needing to use other packages.

I am not saying that someone should not use multiple packages during their normal work week only that you should be able to do your normal work without having to transfer data (and half the time actually convert data) between various packages to get what you need done.

So from my point of view projects should not look at other projects, developers should not list functionality of their program or any other combination. Users should provide standard workflow tasks -- repetitive tasks sequences they complete regularly. Then be asked to complete those tasks on each of the programs being tested. Then the users rate ease of setup, ease of use, suitability of output, support, etc. The actual list of user experience ratings can be knocked up by an overview committee. This committee could also vet the users who put their hand up to ensure a good spectrum of users and tasks, from different sections of society (academic, commercial, newbie) are all represented and no bias exists.

If developers think this might be too harsh (as users may not fully understand what is going on or how the program works), maybe a middle ground would be that the developers submit a solution to these workflow processes. The users follow these instructions and evaluate the outcome. This avoids users baulking at some quite eccentric GUI interfaces or program setup (solution must provide clear setup instructions for Windows and Linux). These solutions are tried and reviewed by the user. The workflows, results, comments and developer solutions can be collated onto one site (the OSGeo site seems appropriate) as a valuable resource for developers and user alike.

Cheers Simon

Simon Cropper
Botanicus Australia Pty Ltd
PO Box 160, Sunshine, Victoria 3020.
P: 9311 5822. M: 041 830 3437.
[hidden email]
web: www.botanicusaustralia.com.au



Stefan Steiniger wrote:
Hei all,

thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for
remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.

I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison
thing is
a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of
tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?

So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases
first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a
section on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that just
most of the projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which
of course does not mean that such thing should not be presented - but it
must be focussed in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a
side note, I am not sure if measuring processing times makes sense
either, as GIS analysis feature sets are so different.

However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.

Two more notes:
- my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007), i.e.
need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into
account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards
the "average" GIS users).
- I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes
pdf can be downloaded from there.

cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
stefan

PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA
for Geomorphologic Analysis
http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf


Paul Ramsey schrieb:
Interested in a different approach that is lower impact, but still
interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
about ___, what I hate about____".

Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."

Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.

Works for almost any application category too.


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Agustin Diez Castillo-2
Simon,
I agree 99% with you, but why you left Mac out of the tests. AFAICT Grass, Qgis, Udig, OpenJump, OrbisGis, geoserver,
mapserver and somehow gvSIG work on Mac.
Agustin

> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
>   <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
>   <title></title>
> </head>
> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
> I agree with Stefan.<br>
> <br>
> I have found comparison tables of little use as the compiler has to
> summarize what is probably quite complex routines. They rarely give a
> potential user like myself the complete picture.<br>
> <br>
> My view has been that the only way to evaluate the usefulness of a
> program is to use it on actual data trying to do actual things.<br>
> <br>
> I have tried multiple OS GIS packages and they all do different things
> in different ways. Some useful some novel (to me).<br>
> <br>
> What really counts is if you can use one program to complete your
> normal workflow without needing to use other packages.<br>
> <br>
> I am not saying that someone should not use multiple packages during
> their normal work week only that you should be able to do your normal
> work without having to transfer data (and half the time actually
> convert data) between various packages to get what you need done.<br>
> <br>
> So from my point of view projects should not look at other projects,
> developers should not list functionality of their program or any other
> combination. Users should provide standard workflow tasks -- repetitive
> tasks sequences they complete regularly. Then be asked to complete
> those tasks on each of the programs being tested. Then the users rate
> ease of setup, ease of use, suitability of output, support, etc. The
> actual list of user experience ratings can be knocked up by an overview
> committee. This committee could also vet the users who put their hand
> up to ensure a good spectrum of users and tasks, from different
> sections of society (academic, commercial, newbie) are all represented
> and no bias exists.<br>
> <br>
> If developers think this might be too harsh (as users may not fully
> understand what is going on or how the program works), maybe a middle
> ground would be that the developers submit a solution to these workflow
> processes. The users follow these instructions and evaluate the
> outcome. This avoids users baulking at some quite eccentric GUI
> interfaces or program setup (solution must provide clear setup
> instructions for Windows and Linux). These solutions are tried and
> reviewed by the user. The workflows, results, comments and developer
> solutions can be collated onto one site (the OSGeo site seems
> appropriate) as a valuable resource for developers and user alike.<br>
> <div class="moz-signature">
> <p>Cheers Simon</p>
> <p style="margin-left: 36pt;">
> Simon Cropper <br>
> Botanicus Australia Pty Ltd<br>
> PO Box 160, Sunshine, Victoria 3020.<br>
> P: 9311 5822. M: 041 830 3437.<br>
> <a href="mailto:[hidden email]">mailto:
> [hidden email]</a> <br>
> <a href="http://www.botanicusaustralia.com.au">web:
> www.botanicusaustralia.com.au</a> <br>
> </p>
> </div>
> <br>
> <br>
> Stefan Steiniger wrote:
> <blockquote cite="mid:[hidden email]" type="cite">Hei all,
>   <br>
>   <br>
> thanks for Cameron on keeping me in the loop, and to Markus for
>   <br>
> remembering :)  I am now subscribed to this list.
>   <br>
>   <br>
> I think Pauls idea sounds interesting - because this whole comparison
>   <br>
> thing is
>   <br>
> a) quite cumbersome when we have 10 desktop GIS (+ X), and
>   <br>
> b) neither really worth because desktop GIS are used for a multitude of
>   <br>
> tasks, while web map Servers or databases aren't that much - right?
>   <br>
>   <br>
> So as Paul is quoted on the osgeo wiki: one needs to set up use cases
>   <br>
> first (just wrote that today in a new article too, which contains a
>   <br>
> section on selecting free GIS software). And I also discovered that
> just
>   <br>
> most of the projects have a different focus during my evaluation. Which
>   <br>
> of course does not mean that such thing should not be presented - but
> it
>   <br>
> must be focussed in some way or the other to have a benefit. And as a
>   <br>
> side note, I am not sure if measuring processing times makes sense
>   <br>
> either, as GIS analysis feature sets are so different.
>   <br>
>   <br>
> However, I am in for testing with OpenJUMP.
>   <br>
>   <br>
> Two more notes:
>   <br>
> - my comparison tables are now already 2 years old now (from 2007),
> i.e.
>   <br>
> need some update (but the last pub in Ecological Informatics took into
>   <br>
> account newer developments too, but is superficial and focused towards
>   <br>
> the "average" GIS users).
>   <br>
> - I gave a talk about this at OGRS:
>   <br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ogrs2009.org/doku.php?id=keynotes">http://www.ogrs2009org/doku.php?id=keynotes</a>

>   <br>
> pdf can be downloaded from there.
>   <br>
>   <br>
> cheers from Germany right now (Xmas)
>   <br>
> stefan
>   <br>
>   <br>
> PS: I know also of this comparison by T. Hengl et al. on Grass vs. SAGA
>   <br>
> for Geomorphologic Analysis
>   <br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf">http://www.igc.usp.br/pessoais/guano/downloads/Hengl_etal_2009_gmorph.pdf</a>

>   <br>
>   <br>
>   <br>
> Paul Ramsey schrieb:
>   <br>
>   <blockquote type="cite">Interested in a different approach that is
> lower impact, but still
>     <br>
> interesting and entertaining? Have developers review a "competing"
>     <br>
> project and then present their findings, in the form of "What I love
>     <br>
> about ___, what I hate about____".
>     <br>
>     <br>
> Jody Garnett presents "What I love about QGIS, what I hate about QGIS."
>     <br>
> Jorge Sanz presents "What I love about uDig, what I hate about uDig."
>     <br>
> Tim Sutton presents "What I love about gvSIG, what I hate about gvSIG."
>     <br>
>     <br>
> Not only do you get an unvarnished view, but you can have shorter
>     <br>
> presentations with a discussion segment at the end of each one.
>     <br>
>     <br>
> Works for almost any application category too.
>     <br>
>     <br>
>   </blockquote>
>   <br>
> _______________________________________________
>   <br>
> Discuss mailing list
>   <br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a>
>   <br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeoorg/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
>   <br>
>   <br>
>   <br>
> </blockquote>
> </body>
> </html>
>


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Maxim Dubinin
In reply to this post by Simon Cropper
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010? Sometime ago, we were also interested in why are there so many desktop open GIS packages. So what we did was the following, we created a model project with several groups of different type layers and recreated it with 10+ packages, opensource, proprietory, even some web-based ones. It is was quite interesting exercise, where a dozen of people participated and it was pretty clear in the end where opensource GIS are in comparison with proprietory and in between themselves.

Of course this only covers simple project building and does not compare analysis etc. Moreover, the initial goal of this dataset was not comparison, but easy start with any common desktop GIS package + assistance to devs and education purposes, some ability to conclude which one was better was sort of a side-effect.

You can check the results here, (originally in Russian):
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgis-lab.info%2Fqa%2Fgeosample.html&sl=ru&tl=en

Maxim
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: An interesting article about software licensing in the non-open source geospatial world

Venkatesh Raghavan
In reply to this post by Frank Warmerdam
Frank

Frank Warmerdam wrote:
...
>
> Building on software distributed under well understood and relatively
> unrestrictive open source licenses can help a great deal.

Could you let me know what would the
"relatively unrestrictive open source licenses"
be.
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Simon Cropper
In reply to this post by Maxim Dubinin
Maxim,

I looked at the webpage but could not find an outcome -- which system worked the best?

Cheers Simon

Simon Cropper
Botanicus Australia Pty Ltd
PO Box 160, Sunshine, Victoria 3020.
P: 9311 5822. M: 041 830 3437.
[hidden email]
web: www.botanicusaustralia.com.au



Maxim Dubinin wrote:
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010? Sometime ago, we were also interested in why are there so many desktop open GIS packages. So what we did was the following, we created a model project with several groups of different type layers and recreated it with 10+ packages, opensource, proprietory, even some web-based ones. It is was quite interesting exercise, where a dozen of people participated and it was pretty clear in the end where opensource GIS are in comparison with proprietory and in between themselves.

Of course this only covers simple project building and does not compare analysis etc. Moreover, the initial goal of this dataset was not comparison, but easy start with any common desktop GIS package + assistance to devs and education purposes, some ability to conclude which one was better was sort of a side-effect.

You can check the results here, (originally in Russian):
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgis-lab.info%2Fqa%2Fgeosample.html&sl=ru&tl=en

Maxim

_______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
12