Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Daniel Ames
Helena, perhaps we should move this discussion to the EDU list, since this side by side comparison you have done could be expanded to include multiple desktop applications and would be fantastic to have as an educational tool. Perhaps we can copy your exercises on a WIKI page and then encourage other teams to post solutions using other desktop apps where they can? Then we'd all have this as a resource to use in classes... - Dan

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Helena Mitasova <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have numerous examples of gis  tasks done side-by-side in GRASS and ArcGIS here:

http://courses.ncsu.edu/mea582/lec/001/GIS_anal_assign/GIS_Anal_Assignall.html

The data for the examples are available as GRASS data location and ArcGIS geodatabase
(links on top of the document)
as well as in shape and ArcGRID format (I could not get all rasters convert correctly to GeoTIFF
at the time I was preparing the data) here
http://www.grassbook.org/data_menu3rd.php

It certainly does not cover everything (especially vector data and database examples are very limited)
but there is plenty to show various aspects of GIS from simple display and visualization to complex
analysis.

It would be interesting to see some of these examples done in other systems - we tried QGIS but that ended up
using GRASS plugin too much, so other more independent software would be more interesting.
I will be updating the material in next few months to capture the latest developments and plan
to add another course with examples in different software packages in fall.
I am sure there will be a lot of interest here to see how at least some of the tasks are executed
in MapWindows of gvSIG and also extension of this material to cover more vector / database
and image processing material.

Feel free to use the data, the examples are various modifications of the examples from the GRASbook,

Helena



Helena Mitasova
Associate Professor
Department of Marine, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
North Carolina State University
1125 Jordan Hall
NCSU Box 8208
Raleigh, NC 27695-8208
http://skagit.meas.ncsu.edu/~helena/

email: [hidden email]
ph: 919-513-1327 (no voicemail)
fax 919 515-7802





On Dec 22, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Stefan Steiniger wrote:

Hei Dan,

thanks for the thoughts - I like them too and thats what I see too.. we need not only to bring up the highlights between FOSGIS but even more to convince people to eventually have a look on FOSGIS by comparing it to ESRIs desktop software, since they have set a bit the standards (at least for teaching higher level geography GIS courses).

But two notes: I doubte that ESRI has 80% because this would mean the utility market is not considered. And I think one talks here more about ESRI in a gegraphical analysis perspective. While I am not sure what the average GIS user actually does (i.e. How many do queries, do editing, do "real" analysis?).

I like your subquestions - and allow me to add comments :)
And the three main sub-questions are:
Can I open the same files?
well.. on the c-tribe side yes thanks to Gdal/OGR? But i would restrict to core file types (shp, dxf, mif, raster stuff)

Can I make the same maps?
uuhmmm - not yet, but...?

Can I do the same analyses?
With Sextante probably yes, now.

Can I teach the same lessons?
Ahh.. that hits a point. As we need to tell students about "this open source stuff". I actually plan to check out the next days if I can replace some arcgis analysis tools with sextante for a course.

So maybe we check what is taugth in the GIS core curriculum?

Something like the MS thesis about GRASS and ArcGIS that was mentioned, but web-based and updated by the various project members.

Sounds good and its great if you would have even student resources.
I actually tried to do such comparison already in my second publication on GIS in landscape ecology and in my last talks - my result was: Most of the FOS desktop GIS are on the ArcView level and a bit beyond, but we can not compete with ArcInfo (leave a side the need for an easy map making tool - not sure how good the last QGIS tool is). So by now I see our chance in providing "specialist" tools for target groups that are either too small for ESRI, Pitney Bowes & Intergraph & Co to be ever included in their official distribution or that may be to expensive to be bought as extension for some (I remember a friend who once needed Maplex for labeling but not the rest of ArcGIS ArcInfo analysis features). And we would need to highlight which whose things are.

here a link to that pub:
http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~sstein/finalpub/steiniger_geographic_information_tools_ecoinf2009.pdf

stefan
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--
Daniel P. Ames, Ph.D. PE
Associate Professor, Geosciences
Idaho State University - Idaho Falls
[hidden email]
geology.isu.edu
www.hydromap.com
www.mapwindow.org

*************************************************************************
See you at MapWindow GIS 2010!
Orlando, Florida, USA
31 March - 2 April 2010
http://www.mapwindow.org/conference/2010

Also at:
FOSS4G 2009: http://2009.foss4g.org/
AWRA GIS 2010: http://www.awra.org/meetings/Florida2010/
IEMSS 2010: http://www.iemss.org/iemss2010/
*************************************************************************


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Re: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Helena Mitasova
Daniel, yes, I am definitely more interested in the educational  
aspect of the comparison than the performance which
I think would be very difficult to measure because accuracy and  
quality of the results (whatever that means)
may be as important as speed, if not more.

I have been promising Charlie to put this under OSGeo Edu svn for a  
long time, but I keep updating
and improving it so it is never finished - I guess it will never be  
so I may as well upload it. I have created
NCSU directory there and we started a coastal lidar data analysis  
tutorial -
http://svn.osgeo.org/osgeo/education/UnderDevelopment/
(see more about the edu svn here http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/ 
Subversion_edu_instructions)

I will upload some of the course material and we can try to add a  
MapWindow solution?
We can do two topics for a start, e.g.
Buffers and cost surfaces
Flow routing and watershed analysis
The power point slides for relevant lectures explain the tasks and  
show some example results.
I used plain text for the assignment tasks to make it manageable and  
easy to update
and it seems that the students are OK with it and can follow the GUI  
procedure for ArcGIS.
I use screen capture only where I feel it is absolutely necessary,  
e.g. for visualization with nviz.

I will let you know when I upload it,

Helena


On Dec 22, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Daniel Ames wrote:

> Helena, perhaps we should move this discussion to the EDU list,  
> since this side by side comparison you have done could be expanded  
> to include multiple desktop applications and would be fantastic to  
> have as an educational tool. Perhaps we can copy your exercises on  
> a WIKI page and then encourage other teams to post solutions using  
> other desktop apps where they can? Then we'd all have this as a  
> resource to use in classes... - Dan
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Helena Mitasova  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have numerous examples of gis  tasks done side-by-side in GRASS  
> and ArcGIS here:
>
> http://courses.ncsu.edu/mea582/lec/001/GIS_anal_assign/ 
> GIS_Anal_Assignall.html
>
> The data for the examples are available as GRASS data location and  
> ArcGIS geodatabase
> (links on top of the document)
> as well as in shape and ArcGRID format (I could not get all rasters  
> convert correctly to GeoTIFF
> at the time I was preparing the data) here
> http://www.grassbook.org/data_menu3rd.php
>
> It certainly does not cover everything (especially vector data and  
> database examples are very limited)
> but there is plenty to show various aspects of GIS from simple  
> display and visualization to complex
> analysis.
>
> It would be interesting to see some of these examples done in other  
> systems - we tried QGIS but that ended up
> using GRASS plugin too much, so other more independent software  
> would be more interesting.
> I will be updating the material in next few months to capture the  
> latest developments and plan
> to add another course with examples in different software packages  
> in fall.
> I am sure there will be a lot of interest here to see how at least  
> some of the tasks are executed
> in MapWindows of gvSIG and also extension of this material to cover  
> more vector / database
> and image processing material.
>
> Feel free to use the data, the examples are various modifications  
> of the examples from the GRASbook,
>
> Helena
>
>
>
> Helena Mitasova
> Associate Professor
> Department of Marine, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
> North Carolina State University
> 1125 Jordan Hall
> NCSU Box 8208
> Raleigh, NC 27695-8208
> http://skagit.meas.ncsu.edu/~helena/
>
> email: [hidden email]
> ph: 919-513-1327 (no voicemail)
> fax 919 515-7802
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Stefan Steiniger wrote:
>
> Hei Dan,
>
> thanks for the thoughts - I like them too and thats what I see  
> too.. we need not only to bring up the highlights between FOSGIS  
> but even more to convince people to eventually have a look on  
> FOSGIS by comparing it to ESRIs desktop software, since they have  
> set a bit the standards (at least for teaching higher level  
> geography GIS courses).
>
> But two notes: I doubte that ESRI has 80% because this would mean  
> the utility market is not considered. And I think one talks here  
> more about ESRI in a gegraphical analysis perspective. While I am  
> not sure what the average GIS user actually does (i.e. How many do  
> queries, do editing, do "real" analysis?).
>
> I like your subquestions - and allow me to add comments :)
> And the three main sub-questions are:
> Can I open the same files?
> well.. on the c-tribe side yes thanks to Gdal/OGR? But i would  
> restrict to core file types (shp, dxf, mif, raster stuff)
>
> Can I make the same maps?
> uuhmmm - not yet, but...?
>
> Can I do the same analyses?
> With Sextante probably yes, now.
>
> Can I teach the same lessons?
> Ahh.. that hits a point. As we need to tell students about "this  
> open source stuff". I actually plan to check out the next days if I  
> can replace some arcgis analysis tools with sextante for a course.
>
> So maybe we check what is taugth in the GIS core curriculum?
>
> Something like the MS thesis about GRASS and ArcGIS that was  
> mentioned, but web-based and updated by the various project members.
>
> Sounds good and its great if you would have even student resources.
> I actually tried to do such comparison already in my second  
> publication on GIS in landscape ecology and in my last talks - my  
> result was: Most of the FOS desktop GIS are on the ArcView level  
> and a bit beyond, but we can not compete with ArcInfo (leave a side  
> the need for an easy map making tool - not sure how good the last  
> QGIS tool is). So by now I see our chance in providing "specialist"  
> tools for target groups that are either too small for ESRI, Pitney  
> Bowes & Intergraph & Co to be ever included in their official  
> distribution or that may be to expensive to be bought as extension  
> for some (I remember a friend who once needed Maplex for labeling  
> but not the rest of ArcGIS ArcInfo analysis features). And we would  
> need to highlight which whose things are.
>
> here a link to that pub:
> http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~sstein/finalpub/ 
> steiniger_geographic_information_tools_ecoinf2009.pdf
>
> stefan
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel P. Ames, Ph.D. PE
> Associate Professor, Geosciences
> Idaho State University - Idaho Falls
> [hidden email]
> geology.isu.edu
> www.hydromap.com
> www.mapwindow.org
>
> **********************************************************************
> ***
> See you at MapWindow GIS 2010!
> Orlando, Florida, USA
> 31 March - 2 April 2010
> http://www.mapwindow.org/conference/2010
>
> Also at:
> FOSS4G 2009: http://2009.foss4g.org/
> AWRA GIS 2010: http://www.awra.org/meetings/Florida2010/
> IEMSS 2010: http://www.iemss.org/iemss2010/
> **********************************************************************
> ***
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu_discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/edu_discuss

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

mentaer
In reply to this post by Daniel Ames
so many lists?...
however, I am here now too

I will try to see if students can work on an USLE excercise (thaught in
Zurich originally) with Sextante instead of ESRI's Spatial Snalyst in
the winter term. This way, they could just take stuff home. I actually
plan(ned) to start go through these excercises today.

stefan


Daniel Ames schrieb:

> Helena, perhaps we should move this discussion to the EDU list, since
> this side by side comparison you have done could be expanded to include
> multiple desktop applications and would be fantastic to have as an
> educational tool. Perhaps we can copy your exercises on a WIKI page and
> then encourage other teams to post solutions using other desktop apps
> where they can? Then we'd all have this as a resource to use in
> classes... - Dan
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Helena Mitasova <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I have numerous examples of gis  tasks done side-by-side in GRASS
>     and ArcGIS here:
>
>     http://courses.ncsu.edu/mea582/lec/001/GIS_anal_assign/GIS_Anal_Assignall.html
>
>     The data for the examples are available as GRASS data location and
>     ArcGIS geodatabase
>     (links on top of the document)
>     as well as in shape and ArcGRID format (I could not get all rasters
>     convert correctly to GeoTIFF
>     at the time I was preparing the data) here
>     http://www.grassbook.org/data_menu3rd.php
>
>     It certainly does not cover everything (especially vector data and
>     database examples are very limited)
>     but there is plenty to show various aspects of GIS from simple
>     display and visualization to complex
>     analysis.
>
>     It would be interesting to see some of these examples done in other
>     systems - we tried QGIS but that ended up
>     using GRASS plugin too much, so other more independent software
>     would be more interesting.
>     I will be updating the material in next few months to capture the
>     latest developments and plan
>     to add another course with examples in different software packages
>     in fall.
>     I am sure there will be a lot of interest here to see how at least
>     some of the tasks are executed
>     in MapWindows of gvSIG and also extension of this material to cover
>     more vector / database
>     and image processing material.
>
>     Feel free to use the data, the examples are various modifications of
>     the examples from the GRASbook,
>
>     Helena
>
>
>
>     Helena Mitasova
>     Associate Professor
>     Department of Marine, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
>     North Carolina State University
>     1125 Jordan Hall
>     NCSU Box 8208
>     Raleigh, NC 27695-8208
>     http://skagit.meas.ncsu.edu/~helena/
>
>     email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     ph: 919-513-1327 (no voicemail)
>     fax 919 515-7802
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Dec 22, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Stefan Steiniger wrote:
>
>         Hei Dan,
>
>         thanks for the thoughts - I like them too and thats what I see
>         too.. we need not only to bring up the highlights between FOSGIS
>         but even more to convince people to eventually have a look on
>         FOSGIS by comparing it to ESRIs desktop software, since they
>         have set a bit the standards (at least for teaching higher level
>         geography GIS courses).
>
>         But two notes: I doubte that ESRI has 80% because this would
>         mean the utility market is not considered. And I think one talks
>         here more about ESRI in a gegraphical analysis perspective.
>         While I am not sure what the average GIS user actually does
>         (i.e. How many do queries, do editing, do "real" analysis?).
>
>         I like your subquestions - and allow me to add comments :)
>
>             And the three main sub-questions are:
>             Can I open the same files?
>
>         well.. on the c-tribe side yes thanks to Gdal/OGR? But i would
>         restrict to core file types (shp, dxf, mif, raster stuff)
>
>             Can I make the same maps?
>
>         uuhmmm - not yet, but...?
>
>             Can I do the same analyses?
>
>         With Sextante probably yes, now.
>
>             Can I teach the same lessons?
>
>         Ahh.. that hits a point. As we need to tell students about "this
>         open source stuff". I actually plan to check out the next days
>         if I can replace some arcgis analysis tools with sextante for a
>         course.
>
>         So maybe we check what is taugth in the GIS core curriculum?
>
>             Something like the MS thesis about GRASS and ArcGIS that was
>             mentioned, but web-based and updated by the various project
>             members.
>
>
>         Sounds good and its great if you would have even student resources.
>         I actually tried to do such comparison already in my second
>         publication on GIS in landscape ecology and in my last talks -
>         my result was: Most of the FOS desktop GIS are on the ArcView
>         level and a bit beyond, but we can not compete with ArcInfo
>         (leave a side the need for an easy map making tool - not sure
>         how good the last QGIS tool is). So by now I see our chance in
>         providing "specialist" tools for target groups that are either
>         too small for ESRI, Pitney Bowes & Intergraph & Co to be ever
>         included in their official distribution or that may be to
>         expensive to be bought as extension for some (I remember a
>         friend who once needed Maplex for labeling but not the rest of
>         ArcGIS ArcInfo analysis features). And we would need to
>         highlight which whose things are.
>
>         here a link to that pub:
>         http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~sstein/finalpub/steiniger_geographic_information_tools_ecoinf2009.pdf
>
>         stefan
>         _______________________________________________
>         Discuss mailing list
>         [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Discuss mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel P. Ames, Ph.D. PE
> Associate Professor, Geosciences
> Idaho State University - Idaho Falls
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> geology.isu.edu <http://geology.isu.edu>
> www.hydromap.com <http://www.hydromap.com>
> www.mapwindow.org <http://www.mapwindow.org>
>
> *************************************************************************
> See you at MapWindow GIS 2010!
> Orlando, Florida, USA
> 31 March - 2 April 2010
> http://www.mapwindow.org/conference/2010
>
> Also at:
> FOSS4G 2009: http://2009.foss4g.org/
> AWRA GIS 2010: http://www.awra.org/meetings/Florida2010/
> IEMSS 2010: http://www.iemss.org/iemss2010/
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Re: Will there be an OSGeo Desktop shootout atFOSS4G 2010?

Charlie Schweik
In reply to this post by Helena Mitasova
Hi all,

Helena Mitasova wrote:
> I have been promising Charlie to put this under OSGeo Edu svn for a
> long time, but I keep updating
> and improving it so it is never finished - I guess it will never be so
> I may as well upload it. I have created
> NCSU directory there and we started a coastal lidar data analysis
> tutorial -
> http://svn.osgeo.org/osgeo/education/UnderDevelopment/
> (see more about the edu svn here
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Subversion_edu_instructions)

Great discussion thread and let's indeed pick it up in the edu group.
Helena, your side by side set of assignments and solutions looks great
and thanks for your efforts on the subversion front.
Regarding the comparison idea --here's a link [1] of this type of  
comparison in proprietary statistics packages created at UCLA (not open
source). It provides another example of the kind of thing we might be
working toward.

FYI - I've contacted the lead editor of the University Consortium for
Geographic Information Science (David DiBase, at Penn State -- Ian
Turton's colleague I imagine) about the possible use of their
Geographic Information Science & Technology Body of Knowledge [2] as an
organizational framework for educational material as a group we continue
to develop and share. I'm awaiting his response. Using this I think
we should try and collect and build material like what Helena has done
and link it to appropriate places in this BoK framework.

I'd like to create a subcommittee to help build this OSGeo edu
"organizational scaffolding" and hold a meeting of this subcommittee
over Skype in January. *Please email me if you'd like to be on this
subcommittee*.

Thanks and enjoy whatever holiday you might be celebrating, and I look
forward to making 2010 a "watershed year" for the OSGeo edu effort.

Cheers
Charlie

[1] http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/mult_pkg/whatstat/default.htm.
[2] http://www.ucgis.org/priorities/education/modelcurriculaproject.asp

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