Thank you for your excellent metrics and analysis. I do look forward to
will significantly impact global attendance at a Chinese global FOSS4G.
the size of local Chinese communities interested in attending FOSS4G.
FOSS4G-USA postponed starting till 2013. In 2013 the international
conference is scheduled to be in Europe. Due to the large local FOSS4G
> Hi Peter,
>
> thanks for the detailed analysis. Though I still disagree.
>
> The big difference between the FOSSGIS and the FOSS4G is the language.
> The talks and workshops are in German. Hence it could potentially
> prevent people from going to the global FOSS4G, but not really the other
> way round.
>
> A conclusion you could draw solely based on some numbers is, that the
> FOSSGIS is the reason why less Germans where at the FOSS4G 2011 than
> Dutch. This is one conclusion I even don't believe myself.
>
> This whole discussion is a difficult one as I base my reasoning on gut
> feeling and experience, which is hard to measure. But e.g. one thing you
> can't get out of the current numbers, is the answer to the question:
> Would you go to Beijing if there would be a FOSS4G-NorthAmerica?
>
> Peter, you also make the assumption that the North American core people
> would also go to the global event, even if there is a
> FOSS4G-NorthAmerica. Even if it's the case, would the people from
> somewhere else also go to the global event, when they can meet all
> Americans more easily?
>
> I also found it interesting that based on the replies of this
> discussions, North American people tend to not seeing an issue with
> FOSS4G-NorthAmerica, but people outside of the region do.
>
> I still believe that a more regional, smaller scale approach for North
> America would be better (like the FOSS4G-CEE for Europe, as opposed to a
> FOSS4G-Europe).
>
> Cheers,
> Volker
>
>
> On 10/07/2011 10:53 PM, Peter Batty wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Obviously the question of a North American FOSS4G / OSGeo conference has
>> pros and cons. There are some who are concerned that it would have a big
>> negative impact on the global conference. Based on a pretty detailed
>> look at data from previous conferences, I personally think these
>> concerns are overstated. In this email I just wanted to share that data.
>> I include some of my observations, but please draw your own conclusions
>> (well I'm sure you all will anyway :) !!).
>>
>> There are already multiple strong local conferences, including FOSS4G
>> Japan and FOSSGIS in Germany. According to the 2012 FOSS4G RFP
>> (at
http://svn.osgeo.org/osgeo/foss4g/rfp/2012/osgeo-conference-2012-request-for-proposal.pdf),
>> attendance at FOSSGIS has been as follows:
>>
>> 2011:>400
>> 2010: no data provided
>> 2009: ~500
>> 2008:>400
>> 2007: ~250
>> 2006: nothing - I'm guessing it started in 2007?
>>
>> Note that in 2009, the global FOSS4G was in Sydney, and had 436
>> attendees, so FOSSGIS was larger than the global event that year. I
>> haven't heard anyone requesting that OSGeo should somehow try to prevent
>> FOSSGIS from happening as it is damaging the global FOSS4G (and I don't
>> think there's any way OSGeo could or should do that anyway).
>>
>> Let's look at how many people from Germany have attended FOSS4G, to see
>> if having FOSSGIS there deters Germans from attending. This data comes
>> from Cameron's spreadsheet at
http://bit.ly/p5LZuJ (I will add 2011 data
>> when I can - using my own records for this email). For comparison
>> purposes I also include percentages from France, Italy and UK, as
>> countries that you might expect to be somewhat comparable but that don't
>> have a strong local conference established (so far as I know ... is
>> there one in Italy? ... nothing mentioned in the RFP document though).
>>
>> Percentage of attendees from Germany, France, Italy, UK
>> 2011 (Denver): 1.6, 1.8, 1.9, 1.7
>> 2010 (Barcelona): 7.6, 4.9, 6.1, 3.4,
>> 2009 (Sydney): 3.0, 2.1, 2.8, 1.4 (note strong attendance despite
>> FOSSGIS being larger than Sydney event that year)
>> 2008 (Cape Town): 2.0, 3.4, 3.4, 1.7
>> 2007 (Victoria): 1.5, 2.5, 2.9, 2.1
>> 2006 (Lausanne): 8.8, 7.6, 9.5, 3.5
>>
>> Looking at these numbers, German attendance at FOSS4G does not seem to
>> have been negatively affected by FOSSGIS compared to other countries
>> that one might expect to be broadly comparable that don't have a large
>> local conference (to the best of my knowledge).
>>
>> Now let's look at US and Canadian attendance (percentage) at previous
>> FOSS4G events:
>>
>> 2011 (Denver): 68.6, 6.3 (=74.9 total)
>> 2010 (Barcelona): 8.1, 3.4 (11.5)
>> 2009 (Sydney): 6.4, 5.5 (11.9)
>> 2008 (Cape Town): 5.2, 2.8 (9.0)
>> 2007 (Victoria): 36.7, 35.0 (71.7)
>> 2006 (Lausanne): 9.2, 6.5 (15.7)
>>
>> So for non-North American FOSS4G events, the average US+Canadian
>> attendance has been 12% (or 10.8% based on the most recent 3). Even if
>> North American attendance took a major hit as a result of a North
>> American conference (which the German experience doesn't support), say
>> it drops by 50%, you would only be looking at a 6% drop in total
>> numbers. Maybe some will argue that other people won't come to the
>> global event if not as many North Americans are coming, but I think
>> that's a pretty weak argument. I still think you will have a strong core
>> of key people from the main projects who will go to the global event
>> regardless of other regional events (both from North America and around
>> the world).
>>
>> Another interesting stat from the 2011 conference is that a huge 67%
>> were attending their first FOSS4G. About 16% had attended 3 or more
>> FOSS4Gs (so around 150 people), and I think it's fair to regard them as
>> a "FOSS4G hard core", most of whom who are likely to attend the global
>> conference wherever it is. That number obviously includes a lot of the
>> key people on projects who help give FOSS4G continuity from one year to
>> the next, and who are also people who help draw in other attendees who
>> would like to meet them, hear them speak, etc.
>>
>> Lastly, on the survey from 2011 we asked how likely people were to
>> attend Beijing. 71.8% answered 1 or 2 (where 1 is definitely not) and
>> 14.4% (46 people) answered 4 or 5. Interestingly that 14.4% is very
>> close to the "hard core" number I just mentioned who have been to 3 or
>> more FOSS4Gs. If you extrapolate that to all attendees (which may or may
>> not be valid), that suggests that maybe around 130 people who attended
>> in 2011 are reasonably likely to attend Beijing. The Beijing organizers
>> are budgeting on an attendance of 500. Based on all previous events, we
>> should expect between 60 and 75% of attendees in Beijing to be from
>> Asia, most of whom will be attending their first FOSS4G. So looking at
>> it from multiple angles, both the survey and historical data suggest a
>> similar number for people from outside the host continent.
>>
>> I looked at which countries those 46 people were from who answered 4 or
>> 5 (likely to attend Beijing), and 7 were from the US and 6 from Canada,
>> so that's 28% of the people who responded that way. That suggests a
>> likely attendance of 36 people from North America in Beijing, even if
>> there is no North American event. My feeling is that most of those 36
>> would go regardless of whether there is a North American event or not.
>> Even if half of them chose not to go because of a North American event,
>> I don't think the loss of 18 North Americans, out of a total of 500
>> people, should cause anyone to panic about the nature of the global
>> event. And I think the attrition would probably be a lot less than that.
>>
>> So anyway, I think I've gone on long enough. The more I look at the data
>> from previous conferences, the more I think that having a North American
>> event would have little to no impact on a global event. But I encourage
>> you to look at the data and decide for yourself.
>>
>> I also think that having a North American event more often than every
>> 3-4 years would be very beneficial in growing the use of open source
>> geospatial here, and I could go on about that a lot more, but won't in
>> this email :).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Daniel Ames<
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> I also just sent an email to the INSPIRE Forums administrator asking
>> about the date/place for the INSPIRE conference 2012. I'll let you
>> know what/if I hear back.
>>
>> - Dan
>>
>> --------------------------
>> Daniel P. Ames, Ph.D. PE
>> Associate Professor, Geosciences
>> Idaho State University - Idaho Falls
>>
[hidden email]<mailto:
[hidden email]>
>> geology.isu.edu<
http://geology.isu.edu/>
>> www.mapwindow.org<
http://www.mapwindow.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/9/27 Karel Charvat<
[hidden email]<mailto:
[hidden email]>>
>>
>> I am afraid, that it could be exactly in this time. Usually it
>> is date of INSPIRE conference. Or this week or week after. It
>> seems, that till now is not announced. It is only clear, that it
>> will be in Turkey. See
>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIxqnNnfRTU.____>>
>> __ __
>>
>> If you have till now some chance to move date, I can try to ask
>> EC people about expected date.____
>>
>> Karel____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> *From:*Paul Meems [mailto:
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:06 PM
>> *To:* Karel Charvat
>> *Cc:* Daniel Ames; conference
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: RE: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Karel,
>>
>>
>>
>> We've scheduled the conference in Arnhem from 25 - 28 June 2012.
>> When and where will the 2012 INSPIRE conference be held? I've
>> looked at their website but they only show the past conferences.
>> The Central End Eastern European Open Source conference also
>> sounds interesting ;)
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
>> ____
>>
>> *Obrázek byl odebrán odesílatelem.**Paul Meems *
>>
>>
>> Release manager, configuration manager
>> and forum moderator of MapWindow GIS.
>> www.mapwindow.org<
http://www.mapwindow.org/>
>>
>> Owner of MapWindow.nl - Support for
>> Dutch speaking users.
>> www.mapwindow.nl<
http://www.mapwindow.nl/>____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Obrázek byl odebrán odesílatelem.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> 2011/9/27 Karel Charvat<
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>>____
>>
>> Daniel,____
>>
>> In any case we are interested to join MapWindow conference.
>> Please do you know when it will be. Because in end of June is
>> European INSPIRE conference and it is also important for us.____
>>
>> We are planning to organise this Central End Eastern European
>> Open Source conference in week from 21th May____
>>
>> Karel____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> *From:*Daniel Ames [mailto:
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:27 AM
>> *To:* Karel Charvat; Paul Meems
>> *Cc:* conference
>> *Subject:* Re: RE: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Karel and other Euro-folks,____
>>
>> The MapWindow team is having our 3rd International conference in
>> The Netherlands in June 2012. We would like to expand this as a
>> regional FOSS4G. If anyone is interested in discussing, please
>> contact me and Paul Meems (copied here).____
>>
>> Thanks,____
>>
>> - Dan
>> --------
>> Daniel P. Ames Ph.D.
>> Idaho State University Dept. of Geosciences
>>
[hidden email]<mailto:
[hidden email]>
>> --------
>> Sent from my Droid____
>>
>> On Sep 23, 2011 2:37 PM, "Karel Charvat"<
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>> wrote:
>> > Dave and Bart,
>> > I personally think, that rotation principle is good and I
>> think, that is
>> > good to give chance not only for Europe and North America, but
>> also for
>> > other parts of word. I am writing this as representative of
>> organisation,
>> > who competed for this year. We join to the competition, when
>> in first round
>> > was not offer, before we didn't thinking about this. Only when
>> there were
>> > not other offer, we tried to participate. As I mentioned, I am
>> sure, that
>> > China will be organised good event.
>> > I would like also clarify, why we would like organised this
>> Central and
>> > Eastern European event. For many people from post socialist
>> countries
>> > (mainly for people working on Universities), where is many OS
>> developers is
>> > difficult or impossible to travel on FOSS conferences around
>> the World. And
>> > I think, that direct contact are useful and to organise
>> regional events is
>> > chance for them to meet part of community. I think, that this
>> is also
>> > important to support grooving of community in this way. I am
>> sure, that will
>> > be mistake to organise events, which could compeate for World
>> FOSS4G, but
>> > regional events will help to establish cooperation, but also
>> promote OS
>> > solution. I see also his as important aspect to establish ling
>> among
>> > developers and users.
>> > I have also one recommendation, for big FOSS4G conference
>> provide selection
>> > two years in advance, it will give better possibilities and
>> time for
>> > preparation of such large events, but also will give
>> possibilities for
>> > better coordination with regional event.
>> > Karel
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>
>> > [mailto:
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of
>> Dave McIlhagga
>> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:44 PM
>> > To: Bart van den Eijnden
>> > Cc: conference; OSGeo-Board List
>> > Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference
>> >
>> > It depends on what OSGeo is trying to achieve through running
>> conferences.
>> > Is it:
>> >
>> > 1. Provide an opportunity for a maximum number of developers
>> to connect face
>> > to face
>> > 2. Encourage adoption of OSGeo technologies
>> > 3. Raise funds for OSGeo
>> > 4. etc...
>> >
>> > Encouraging adoption fo OSGeo was the primary driver for the
>> current 3
>> > region rotation, but I'm not sure if that's still the highest
>> priority of
>> > the organization. Uncertainty in this matter led in some part
>> to the
>> > difficulties in the selection process this year.
>> >
>> > I'd like to suggest that the Board conduct a full review of
>> the conference
>> > selection process -- as it currently feels highly disconnected
>> from the
>> > priorities of the board. The recent decision of the board to
>> eliminate the
>> > Exec Director position was in part rooted in finances -- that's
>> > understandable, however at the same time, selecting China was
>> likely not a
>> > wise choice if finances were the primary driver. Is it
>> possible that this
>> > selection led directly to the termination of the ED position?
>> Was that wise?
>> >
>> >
>> > I believe the FOSS4G selection process is one of the most
>> important
>> > decisions made annually by OSGeo as an organization. What
>> concerns me is
>> > that this decision is currently effectively made by this
>> committee without
>> > it being strongly connected to the priorities of the
>> organization as a
>> > whole.
>> >
>> > If nothing else, given the financial link between this
>> selection, and the
>> > viability of OSGeo, I believe fixing this process needs to be
>> one of the top
>> > priorities by the board.
>> >
>> > My 2 cents.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2011-09-23, at 3:05 PM, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:
>> >
>> >> I totally agree with what Volker says here.
>> >>
>> >> My personal preference would be a two year rotation between
>> Europe and
>> > North America, with only local conferences in Other.
>> >>
>> >> Bart
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 23, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Volker Mische
>> <
[hidden email]<mailto:
[hidden email]>>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi all,
>> >>>
>> >>> I already wrote it in my blog post about the FOSS4G, but it
>> should also
>> >>> hit the mailing lists as well.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't think that a yearly North American FOSS4G is a good
>> idea. I fear
>> >>> that people will be going there and the global one will die
>> (especially
>> >>> next year, when it is "in some other country").
>> >>>
>> >>> A lot of devs in the FOSS4G world are from North America
>> (I'd even say
>> >>> the majority, but I'm not sure about it). Those will
>> definitely go to a
>> >>> North American event.
>> >>>
>> >>> I could imagine that many people from Europe can justify one
>> conference
>> >>> to go somewhere in the world, when there's enough value.
>> Which is for
>> >>> me, in case for the FOSS4G, meeting almost all core
>> developers of the
>> >>> various FOSS4G projects.
>> >>>
>> >>> If I have the choice to meet all the North American
>> developers and a lot
>> >>> of other ones as well, and the choice between meeting some
>> American and
>> >>> European developers perhaps at some other place in the world
>> (where it
>> >>> might even be harder to get there (think about past events like
>> >>> Australia)). Where would you go?
>> >>>
>> >>> And also important: where would the sponsors invest? It was
>> already a
>> >>> hard time for the Sydney conference to cover the costs, how
>> hard would
>> >>> it be if there's another big conference?
>> >>>
>> >>> For me those are reasons why the a global event might die,
>> and that
>> >>> would be a shame. As we heard at (I think) the AGM, past
>> conferences
>> >>> planted seeds in those locations.
>> >>>
>> >>> The rotating between Europe, North America and somewhere
>> else makes a
>> >>> lot of sense to me, but if there will be a North American
>> conference
>> >>> every year, we can just drop the "somewhere else" and go for
>> a Europe,
>> >>> North America, North America rotation.
>> >>>
>> >>> For me the solution would be to make more localised
>> conferences in North
>> >>> America, like a West Coast, East Coast, Central, Canadian
>> one. This
>> >>> won't draw to much developers away from the global one. It
>> would kind of
>> >>> the same as in Europe, where we also have local Chapter
>> conferences.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>> Volker
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Conference_dev mailing list
>> >>>
[hidden email]
>> <mailto:
[hidden email]>
>> >>>
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
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>> >
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