Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
16 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Suchith Anand
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.

Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board meeting's  agenda items. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Suchith


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

+1


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management
University of Copenhagen

MOB +45 40115084
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>


[cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]



Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
Til: [hidden email]
Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Dear OSGEO,
For what our good name is worth. . .
Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard for a data format?
Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective response encouraged.

Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values? I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”

The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clone/

[First paragraph]
We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails, retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have enjoyed for many years.
[cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]

Thanks much,
-Patrick

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
 Project Manager
NASA World Wind
(650) 604-5656 (office)
(650) 269-2788 (cell)




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Puneet Kishor
Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.

Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board meeting's  agenda items. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Suchith


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

+1


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management
University of Copenhagen

MOB <a href="tel:%2B45%2040115084" value="+4540115084">+45 40115084
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>


[cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]



Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
Til: [hidden email]
Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Dear OSGEO,
For what our good name is worth. . .
Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard for a data format?
Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective response encouraged.

Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values? I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”

The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clone/

[First paragraph]
We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails, retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have enjoyed for many years.
[cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]

Thanks much,
-Patrick

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
 Project Manager
NASA World Wind
<a href="tel:%28650%29%20604-5656" value="+16506045656">(650) 604-5656 (office)
<a href="tel:%28650%29%20269-2788" value="+16502692788">(650) 269-2788 (cell)






--
Puneet Kishor
Manager, Science and Data Policy
Creative Commons

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Cameron Shorter
Patrick, others,
OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API

I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.

0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?)
1. Describe the issue. (Is there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?)
2. Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
4. If needed, collect signatures.
5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter

On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.

Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board meeting's  agenda items. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Suchith


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

+1


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management
University of Copenhagen

MOB <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B45%2040115084" value="+4540115084">+45 40115084
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>


[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060">cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]



Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
Til: [hidden email]
Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Dear OSGEO,
For what our good name is worth. . .
Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard for a data format?
Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective response encouraged.

Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values? I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”

The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clone/

[First paragraph]
We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails, retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have enjoyed for many years.
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060">cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]

Thanks much,
-Patrick

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
 Project Manager
NASA World Wind
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28650%29%20604-5656" value="+16506045656">(650) 604-5656 (office)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28650%29%20269-2788" value="+16502692788">(650) 269-2788 (cell)






--
Puneet Kishor
Manager, Science and Data Policy
Creative Commons


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

-- 
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Suchith Anand
Hi Cameron,

Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.

Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.

Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?

I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the future.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Patrick, others,
OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API

I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.

0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?)
1. Describe the issue. (Is there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?)
2. Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
4. If needed, collect signatures.
5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter

On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.

Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board meeting's  agenda items. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Suchith


________________________________________
From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

+1


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management
University of Copenhagen

MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>


[cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]



Fra: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>] På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
Til: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Dear OSGEO,
For what our good name is worth. . .
Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard for a data format?
Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective response encouraged.

Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values? I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”

The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clone/

[First paragraph]
We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails, retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have enjoyed for many years.
[cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]

Thanks much,
-Patrick

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
 Project Manager
NASA World Wind
(650) 604-5656<tel:%28650%29%20604-5656> (office)
(650) 269-2788<tel:%28650%29%20269-2788> (cell)






--
Puneet Kishor
Manager, Science and Data Policy
Creative Commons



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F +61 2 9009 5099




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Paul Ramsey
Carl,

No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
"does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
"member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
supposedly supportive of".

Am I incorrect?

WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.

ATB,

P.




On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All -
>
> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards. Any work
> the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of processing,
> visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC standards such as WCS
> and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small, processed LIDAR data sets.
> Feel free to check OGC email archives, project pages, and so forth for
> documentation on any ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>
> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The thread
> participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and investigated their
> re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus on the Web.
>
> or
>
> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference/LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>
> for examples.
>
> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>
> Regards
>
> Carl
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ; [hidden email]
> ; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>
> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much information
> as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the Geoservices REST
> API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the community and OSGeo Board and
> we all can look into this.
>
> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>
> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole Geo
> community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be decent
> enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the future.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Suchith
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and
> the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>
> Patrick, others,
> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>
> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a vendor
> lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should consider developing
> a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>
> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?)
> 1. Describe the issue. (Is there someone who knows the issues well enough to
> describe them?)
> 2. Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the other,
> on both a technical and commercial point of view.
> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>
> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
> Hi Patrick,
>
> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board need to
> look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from the community
> as this has wider implications. This also need to be discussed with like
> minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.
>
> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board meeting's
> agenda items. Thanks.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Suchith
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From:
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
> On Behalf Of Lene Fischer [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
> by ESRI
>
> +1
>
>
> Lene Fischer
> Associate Professor
>
> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management
> University of Copenhagen
>
> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>
> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>
>
>
> Fra:
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
> Til: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
> ESRI
>
> Dear OSGEO,
> For what our good name is worth. . .
> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard for a
> data format?
> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
> response encouraged.
>
> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values? I.e., “We
> hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are created equal,
> that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
> among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”
>
> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clone/
>
> [First paragraph]
> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another proprietary
> format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails, retold conversations,
> and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are being
> used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have enjoyed for
> many years.
> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>
> Thanks much,
> -Patrick
>
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Project Manager
> NASA World Wind
> (650) 604-5656<tel:%28650%29%20604-5656> (office)
> (650) 269-2788<tel:%28650%29%20269-2788> (cell)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Puneet Kishor
> Manager, Science and Data Policy
> Creative Commons
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> --
> Cameron Shorter,
> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> LISAsoft
> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>
> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F +61 2
> 9009 5099
>
>
>
>
> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>
> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> University of Nottingham.
>
> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> permitted by UK legislation.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Suchith Anand
Colleagues,

I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.

"Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this.

"Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to Uruguay.

We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry , governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.

Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries and with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever.

I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in developed and developing countries).

So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
standards program.

Carl,
I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how
people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much
effort / cost would be required to do so.

The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
motivation to initiate such development of a standard.

Patrick,
For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
the open letter with signatures).

On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:

> Paul,
> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,' that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more serious issues at stake.
> -Patrick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
> To: Carl Reed
> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>
> Carl,
>
> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender, the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is supposedly supportive of".
>
> Am I incorrect?
>
> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>
> ATB,
>
> P.
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> All -
>>
>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small, processed LIDAR data sets.
>> Feel free to check OGC email archives, project pages, and so forth for
>> documentation on any ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>>
>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus on the Web.
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>>
>> for examples.
>>
>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>
>>
>> Hi Cameron,
>>
>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>>
>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>>
>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>>
>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the future.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Suchith
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>
>> Patrick, others,
>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>>
>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>>
>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>>
>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> Hi Patrick,
>>
>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.
>>
>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Suchith
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From:
>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>> ists.osgeo.org>
>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> by ESRI
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> Lene Fischer
>> Associate Professor
>>
>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>> of Copenhagen
>>
>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@ig
>> n.ku.dk>>
>>
>>
>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>
>>
>>
>> Fra:
>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>> ists.osgeo.org>
>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
>> [hidden email]>]
>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>> Til:
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> by ESRI
>>
>> Dear OSGEO,
>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>> for a data format?
>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
>> response encouraged.
>>
>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”
>>
>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
>> e/
>>
>> [First paragraph]
>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>> enjoyed for many years.
>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>
>> Thanks much,
>> -Patrick
>> Project Manager
>> NASA World Wind
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Puneet Kishor
>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>> Creative Commons
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cameron Shorter,
>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> LISAsoft
>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>
>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>> +61 2
>> 9009 5099
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>>
>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>> University of Nottingham.
>>
>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>> permitted by UK legislation.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Board mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> _______________________________________________
>> Board mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board

--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099

_______________________________________________
ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Stefan Keller
Dear all, dear OSGeo Board

While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
relevance:

In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in-arcgis/
("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")

Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
(and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")

I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.

Yours, S.


2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand <[hidden email]>:

> Colleagues,
>
> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.
>
> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this.
>
> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to Uruguay.
>
> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry , governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.
>
> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries and with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever.
>
> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in developed and developing countries).
>
> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Suchith
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>
> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
> standards program.
>
> Carl,
> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how
> people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much
> effort / cost would be required to do so.
>
> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
>
> Patrick,
> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
> the open letter with signatures).
>
> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
>> Paul,
>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,' that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more serious issues at stake.
>> -Patrick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
>> To: Carl Reed
>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender, the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is supposedly supportive of".
>>
>> Am I incorrect?
>>
>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>>
>> ATB,
>>
>> P.
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> All -
>>>
>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
>>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
>>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
>>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
>>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small, processed LIDAR data sets.
>>> Feel free to check OGC email archives, project pages, and so forth for
>>> documentation on any ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>>>
>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus on the Web.
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
>>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>>>
>>> for examples.
>>>
>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>>>
>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>>>
>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>>>
>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the future.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Suchith
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>
>>> Patrick, others,
>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>>>
>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>>>
>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>>>
>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi Patrick,
>>>
>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.
>>>
>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Suchith
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From:
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>>> ists.osgeo.org>
>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>>> by ESRI
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>
>>> Lene Fischer
>>> Associate Professor
>>>
>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>>> of Copenhagen
>>>
>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@ig
>>> n.ku.dk>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fra:
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>>> ists.osgeo.org>
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
>>> [hidden email]>]
>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>>> Til:
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>>> by ESRI
>>>
>>> Dear OSGEO,
>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>>> for a data format?
>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
>>> response encouraged.
>>>
>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”
>>>
>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
>>> e/
>>>
>>> [First paragraph]
>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>>> enjoyed for many years.
>>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>>
>>> Thanks much,
>>> -Patrick
>>> Project Manager
>>> NASA World Wind
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Puneet Kishor
>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>>> Creative Commons
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>> LISAsoft
>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>
>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>>> +61 2
>>> 9009 5099
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>>>
>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>>> University of Nottingham.
>>>
>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>>> permitted by UK legislation.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Board mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Board mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>
> --
> Cameron Shorter,
> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> LISAsoft
> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>
> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>
> _______________________________________________
> ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
>
>
>
>
> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>
> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> University of Nottingham.
>
> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> permitted by UK legislation.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Even Rouault-2
Stefan,

That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products
is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as
they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say
it is a selling point for FOSS.

The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his
*closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So
it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API
episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least
opened...

Even

> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
>
> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
> relevance:
>
> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in
> -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
>
> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
>
> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
>
> Yours, S.
>
> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand <[hidden email]>:
> > Colleagues,
> >
> > I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles
> > in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are
> > working together in our common mission of making geospatial education
> > and opportunities accessible to all.
> >
> > "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
> > Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
> > but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
> > will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
> > this.
> >
> > "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
> > possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
> > the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
> > progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
> > developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
> > dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
> > Uruguay.
> >
> > We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
> > governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor
> > who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very
> > start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do
> > that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support
> > Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on
> > Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations
> > with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is
> > always open. So please let us all work together.
> >
> > Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
> > increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries and
> > with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing
> > countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from
> > my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a
> > great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever.
> >
> > I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
> > birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
> > to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
> > like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
> > able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
> > education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
> > developed and developing countries).
> >
> > So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons
> > in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get
> > the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance
> > of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We
> > all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my
> > Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure
> > education opportunities are open to all.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Suchith
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
> > [[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
> > To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
> > Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
> > the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >
> > What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
> > be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
> > standards program.
> >
> > Carl,
> > I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how
> > people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much
> > effort / cost would be required to do so.
> >
> > The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
> > motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
> >
> > Patrick,
> > For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
> > we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
> > developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
> > the open letter with signatures).
> >
> > On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
> >> Paul,
> >> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
> >> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
> >> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
> >> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids
> >> do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy
> >> exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more
> >> serious issues at stake. -Patrick
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
> >> To: Carl Reed
> >> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
> >> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
> >> [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
> >> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>
> >> Carl,
> >>
> >> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
> >> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
> >> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
> >> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
> >> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
> >> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
> >> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
> >> supposedly supportive of".
> >>
> >> Am I incorrect?
> >>
> >> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
> >> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo
> >> to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the
> >> world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone
> >> expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective
> >> yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
> >>
> >> ATB,
> >>
> >> P.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> >>> All -
> >>>
> >>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
> >>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
> >>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
> >>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
> >>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small,
> >>> processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC email archives,
> >>> project pages, and so forth for documentation on any ongoing
> >>> discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
> >>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
> >>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus
> >>> on the Web.
> >>>
> >>> or
> >>>
> >>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
> >>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
> >>>
> >>> for examples.
> >>>
> >>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Carl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
> >>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
> >>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
> >>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
> >>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Cameron,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
> >>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
> >>>
> >>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
> >>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
> >>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
> >>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
> >>>
> >>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
> >>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
> >>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the
> >>> future.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Suchith
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
> >>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
> >>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> >>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
> >>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>
> >>> Patrick, others,
> >>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
> >>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
> >>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
> >>>
> >>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
> >>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
> >>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
> >>>
> >>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
> >>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
> >>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
> >>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
> >>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
> >>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
> >>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
> >>>
> >>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
> >>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
> >>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
> >>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> Hi Patrick,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
> >>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
> >>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
> >>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed
> >>> support for this.
> >>>
> >>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
> >>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Suchith
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From:
> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
> >>> ists.osgeo.org>
> >>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
> >>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
> >>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
> >>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
> >>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
> >>> clone” by ESRI
> >>>
> >>> +1
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Lene Fischer
> >>> Associate Professor
> >>>
> >>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
> >>> of Copenhagen
> >>>
> >>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@ig
> >>> n.ku.dk>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fra:
> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
> >>> ists.osgeo.org>
> >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
> >>> [hidden email]>]
> >>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
> >>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
> >>> Til:
> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
> >>> by ESRI
> >>>
> >>> Dear OSGEO,
> >>> For what our good name is worth. . .
> >>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
> >>> for a data format?
> >>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
> >>> response encouraged.
> >>>
> >>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
> >>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
> >>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
> >>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit
> >>> of Openness].”
> >>>
> >>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
> >>> e/
> >>>
> >>> [First paragraph]
> >>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
> >>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
> >>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
> >>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
> >>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
> >>> enjoyed for many years.
> >>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
> >>>
> >>> Thanks much,
> >>> -Patrick
> >>> Project Manager
> >>> NASA World Wind
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Puneet Kishor
> >>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
> >>> Creative Commons
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Discuss mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Cameron Shorter,
> >>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> >>> LISAsoft
> >>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> >>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
> >>>
> >>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
> >>> +61 2
> >>> 9009 5099
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> >>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> >>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
> >>>
> >>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> >>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
> >>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> >>> University of Nottingham.
> >>>
> >>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> >>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> >>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> >>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> >>> permitted by UK legislation.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Board mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Board mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> >
> > --
> > Cameron Shorter,
> > Software and Data Solutions Manager
> > LISAsoft
> > Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> > 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
> >
> > P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> > and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> > message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
> >
> > Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> > message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
> > author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> > University of Nottingham.
> >
> > This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> > attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> > computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> > communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> > permitted by UK legislation.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Stefan Keller
Even,

You wrote:
> The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his
> *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS.

Youre right. But to me the case is quite similar with respect to
undermine GeoPackage despite release announcements and OGC standards
commitment.

-S.



2015-03-02 11:37 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]>:

> Stefan,
>
> That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products
> is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as
> they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say
> it is a selling point for FOSS.
>
> The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his
> *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So
> it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API
> episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least
> opened...
>
> Even
>
>> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
>>
>> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
>> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
>> relevance:
>>
>> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
>> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
>> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in
>> -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
>>
>> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
>> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
>> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
>> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
>> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
>>
>> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
>> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
>>
>> Yours, S.
>>
>> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand <[hidden email]>:
>> > Colleagues,
>> >
>> > I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles
>> > in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are
>> > working together in our common mission of making geospatial education
>> > and opportunities accessible to all.
>> >
>> > "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
>> > Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
>> > but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
>> > will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
>> > this.
>> >
>> > "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
>> > possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
>> > the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
>> > progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
>> > developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
>> > dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
>> > Uruguay.
>> >
>> > We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
>> > governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor
>> > who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very
>> > start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do
>> > that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support
>> > Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on
>> > Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations
>> > with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is
>> > always open. So please let us all work together.
>> >
>> > Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
>> > increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries and
>> > with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing
>> > countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from
>> > my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a
>> > great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever.
>> >
>> > I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
>> > birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
>> > to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
>> > like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
>> > able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
>> > education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
>> > developed and developing countries).
>> >
>> > So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons
>> > in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get
>> > the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance
>> > of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We
>> > all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my
>> > Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure
>> > education opportunities are open to all.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Suchith
>> >
>> > ________________________________________
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
>> > [[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
>> > To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
>> > Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
>> > Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
>> > the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >
>> > What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
>> > be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
>> > standards program.
>> >
>> > Carl,
>> > I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how
>> > people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much
>> > effort / cost would be required to do so.
>> >
>> > The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
>> > motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
>> >
>> > Patrick,
>> > For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
>> > we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
>> > developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
>> > the open letter with signatures).
>> >
>> > On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
>> >> Paul,
>> >> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
>> >> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
>> >> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
>> >> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids
>> >> do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy
>> >> exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more
>> >> serious issues at stake. -Patrick
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> >> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
>> >> To: Carl Reed
>> >> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
>> >> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
>> >> [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
>> >> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>
>> >> Carl,
>> >>
>> >> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
>> >> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
>> >> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
>> >> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
>> >> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
>> >> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
>> >> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
>> >> supposedly supportive of".
>> >>
>> >> Am I incorrect?
>> >>
>> >> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
>> >> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo
>> >> to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the
>> >> world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone
>> >> expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective
>> >> yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>> >>
>> >> ATB,
>> >>
>> >> P.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> >>> All -
>> >>>
>> >>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
>> >>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
>> >>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
>> >>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
>> >>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small,
>> >>> processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC email archives,
>> >>> project pages, and so forth for documentation on any ongoing
>> >>> discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>> >>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>> >>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus
>> >>> on the Web.
>> >>>
>> >>> or
>> >>>
>> >>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
>> >>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>> >>>
>> >>> for examples.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>>
>> >>> Carl
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>> >>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>> >>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>> >>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>> >>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Cameron,
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>> >>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>> >>>
>> >>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>> >>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>> >>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>> >>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>> >>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>> >>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the
>> >>> future.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best wishes,
>> >>>
>> >>> Suchith
>> >>>
>> >>> ________________________________________
>> >>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>> >>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>> >>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> >>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> >>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>> >>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>
>> >>> Patrick, others,
>> >>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>> >>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>> >>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>> >>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>> >>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>> >>>
>> >>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>> >>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>> >>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>> >>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>> >>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>> >>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>> >>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>> >>>
>> >>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>> >>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>> >>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>> >>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> Hi Patrick,
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>> >>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>> >>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>> >>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed
>> >>> support for this.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>> >>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best wishes,
>> >>>
>> >>> Suchith
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ________________________________________
>> >>> From:
>> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>> >>> ists.osgeo.org>
>> >>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> >>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>> >>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
>> >>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>> >>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
>> >>> clone” by ESRI
>> >>>
>> >>> +1
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Lene Fischer
>> >>> Associate Professor
>> >>>
>> >>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>> >>> of Copenhagen
>> >>>
>> >>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@ig
>> >>> n.ku.dk>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Fra:
>> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>> >>> ists.osgeo.org>
>> >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
>> >>> [hidden email]>]
>> >>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>> >>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>> >>> Til:
>> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> >>> by ESRI
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear OSGEO,
>> >>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>> >>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>> >>> for a data format?
>> >>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
>> >>> response encouraged.
>> >>>
>> >>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>> >>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>> >>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>> >>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit
>> >>> of Openness].”
>> >>>
>> >>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
>> >>> e/
>> >>>
>> >>> [First paragraph]
>> >>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>> >>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>> >>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>> >>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>> >>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>> >>> enjoyed for many years.
>> >>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks much,
>> >>> -Patrick
>> >>> Project Manager
>> >>> NASA World Wind
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Puneet Kishor
>> >>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>> >>> Creative Commons
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cameron Shorter,
>> >>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> >>> LISAsoft
>> >>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> >>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>> >>>
>> >>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>> >>> +61 2
>> >>> 9009 5099
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>> >>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>> >>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>> >>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>> >>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>> >>> University of Nottingham.
>> >>>
>> >>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>> >>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>> >>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>> >>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>> >>> permitted by UK legislation.
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Board mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Board mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> >
>> > --
>> > Cameron Shorter,
>> > Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> > LISAsoft
>> > Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> > 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>> >
>> > P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>> > and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>> > message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>> >
>> > Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>> > message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>> > author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>> > University of Nottingham.
>> >
>> > This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>> > attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>> > computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>> > communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>> > permitted by UK legislation.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Discuss mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
> --
> Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
> http://www.spatialys.com
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Cameron Shorter
In reply to this post by Even Rouault-2
Hi Even,
It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
or promoting a specific lock in strategy.

But we can:
* Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.

* Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
interface.

Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
* I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
difference.
* It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
* However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
to write about it.

On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:

> Stefan,
>
> That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products
> is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as
> they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say
> it is a selling point for FOSS.
>
> The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his
> *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So
> it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API
> episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least
> opened...
>
> Even
>
>> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
>>
>> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
>> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
>> relevance:
>>
>> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
>> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
>> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in
>> -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
>>
>> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
>> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
>> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
>> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
>> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
>>
>> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
>> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
>>
>> Yours, S.
>>
>> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand <[hidden email]>:
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles
>>> in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are
>>> working together in our common mission of making geospatial education
>>> and opportunities accessible to all.
>>>
>>> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
>>> Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
>>> but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
>>> will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
>>> this.
>>>
>>> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
>>> possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
>>> the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
>>> progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
>>> developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
>>> dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
>>> Uruguay.
>>>
>>> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
>>> governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor
>>> who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very
>>> start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do
>>> that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support
>>> Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on
>>> Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations
>>> with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is
>>> always open. So please let us all work together.
>>>
>>> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
>>> increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries and
>>> with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing
>>> countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from
>>> my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a
>>> great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever.
>>>
>>> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
>>> birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
>>> to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
>>> like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
>>> able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
>>> education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
>>> developed and developing countries).
>>>
>>> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons
>>> in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get
>>> the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance
>>> of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We
>>> all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my
>>> Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure
>>> education opportunities are open to all.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Suchith
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
>>> [[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
>>> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>
>>> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
>>> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
>>> standards program.
>>>
>>> Carl,
>>> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how
>>> people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much
>>> effort / cost would be required to do so.
>>>
>>> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
>>> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
>>>
>>> Patrick,
>>> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
>>> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
>>> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
>>> the open letter with signatures).
>>>
>>> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
>>>> Paul,
>>>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
>>>> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
>>>> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
>>>> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids
>>>> do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy
>>>> exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more
>>>> serious issues at stake. -Patrick
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
>>>> To: Carl Reed
>>>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
>>>> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
>>>> [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
>>>> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>
>>>> Carl,
>>>>
>>>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
>>>> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
>>>> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
>>>> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
>>>> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
>>>> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
>>>> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
>>>> supposedly supportive of".
>>>>
>>>> Am I incorrect?
>>>>
>>>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
>>>> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo
>>>> to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the
>>>> world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone
>>>> expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective
>>>> yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>>>>
>>>> ATB,
>>>>
>>>> P.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
>>>>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
>>>>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
>>>>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
>>>>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small,
>>>>> processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC email archives,
>>>>> project pages, and so forth for documentation on any ongoing
>>>>> discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>>>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>>>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus
>>>>> on the Web.
>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
>>>>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> for examples.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>>>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>>>>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>>>>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>>>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>>>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>>>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>>>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>>>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>>>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>>>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the
>>>>> future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Suchith
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>>>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>>>>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>>>>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>>>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick, others,
>>>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>>>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>>>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>>>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>>>>>
>>>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>>>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>>>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>>>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>>>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>>>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>>>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>>>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>>>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>>>>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Patrick,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>>>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>>>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>>>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed
>>>>> support for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>>>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Suchith
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From:
>>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>>>>> ists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>>>>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>>>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>>>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
>>>>> clone” by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lene Fischer
>>>>> Associate Professor
>>>>>
>>>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>>>>> of Copenhagen
>>>>>
>>>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@ig
>>>>> n.ku.dk>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fra:
>>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l
>>>>> ists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
>>>>> [hidden email]>]
>>>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>>>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>>>>> Til:
>>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>>>>> by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear OSGEO,
>>>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>>>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>>>>> for a data format?
>>>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
>>>>> response encouraged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>>>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>>>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>>>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit
>>>>> of Openness].”
>>>>>
>>>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
>>>>> e/
>>>>>
>>>>> [First paragraph]
>>>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>>>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>>>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>>>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>>>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>>>>> enjoyed for many years.
>>>>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks much,
>>>>> -Patrick
>>>>> Project Manager
>>>>> NASA World Wind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Puneet Kishor
>>>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>>>>> Creative Commons
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>>> LISAsoft
>>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>>
>>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>>>>> +61 2
>>>>> 9009 5099
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>>>>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>>>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>>>>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>>>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>>>>> University of Nottingham.
>>>>>
>>>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>>>>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>>>>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>>>>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>>>>> permitted by UK legislation.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Board mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Board mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>>> --
>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>> LISAsoft
>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>
>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>>>
>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>>> University of Nottingham.
>>>
>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>>> permitted by UK legislation.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Even Rouault-2
Hi Cameron,

> It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
> or promoting a specific lock in strategy.

Of course. That was exactly my point.

>
> But we can:
> * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
> standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
> that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
> have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.

With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
format:
http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
Activities.html

I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/ 
and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
implements it ;-)

>
> * Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
> technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
> interface.

There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct
interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions
are already happening behind the scene ?

>
> Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
> * I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
> read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
> difference.

Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be
similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it
"proves" that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only
implementations could not get the stamp!

> * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
> directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.

I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
implementations that do support write capability.

> * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
> to write about it.
>
> On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
> > Stefan,
> >
> > That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its
> > products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers).
> > Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the
> > standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS.
> >
> > The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes
> > his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by
> > FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the
> > Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the
> > protocol had been at least opened...
> >
> > Even
> >
> >> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
> >>
> >> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
> >> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
> >> relevance:
> >>
> >> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
> >> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
> >> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages
> >> -in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
> >>
> >> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
> >> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
> >> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
> >> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
> >> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
> >>
> >> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
> >> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
> >>
> >> Yours, S.
> >>
> >> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand
<[hidden email]>:

> >>> Colleagues,
> >>>
> >>> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open
> >>> Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand
> >>> for and are working together in our common mission of making
> >>> geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.
> >>>
> >>> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
> >>> Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
> >>> but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
> >>> will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
> >>> this.
> >>>
> >>> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
> >>> possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
> >>> the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
> >>> progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
> >>> developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
> >>> dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
> >>> Uruguay.
> >>>
> >>> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
> >>> governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary
> >>> vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from
> >>> the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor
> >>> wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will
> >>> also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling
> >>> externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have
> >>> good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of
> >>> friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.
> >>>
> >>> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
> >>> increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries
> >>> and with free and open source software, even poor schools in
> >>> developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i
> >>> know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these
> >>> factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation
> >>> forever.
> >>>
> >>> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
> >>> birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
> >>> to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
> >>> like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
> >>> able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
> >>> education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
> >>> developed and developing countries).
> >>>
> >>> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important
> >>> lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did
> >>> not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the
> >>> importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam"
> >>> which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo
> >>> for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my
> >>> abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Suchith
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: [hidden email]
> >>> [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
> >>> [[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
> >>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
> >>> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
> >>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>
> >>> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
> >>> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
> >>> standards program.
> >>>
> >>> Carl,
> >>> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain
> >>> how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how
> >>> much effort / cost would be required to do so.
> >>>
> >>> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
> >>> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
> >>>
> >>> Patrick,
> >>> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
> >>> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
> >>> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
> >>> the open letter with signatures).
> >>>
> >>> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
> >>>> Paul,
> >>>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
> >>>> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
> >>>> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
> >>>> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your
> >>>> kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a
> >>>> healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are
> >>>> even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
> >>>> To: Carl Reed
> >>>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
> >>>> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
> >>>> [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
> >>>> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
> >>>> ESRI
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl,
> >>>>
> >>>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
> >>>> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
> >>>> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
> >>>> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
> >>>> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
> >>>> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
> >>>> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
> >>>> supposedly supportive of".
> >>>>
> >>>> Am I incorrect?
> >>>>
> >>>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
> >>>> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
> >>>> OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
> >>>> in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
> >>>> everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
> >>>> collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
> >>>>
> >>>> ATB,
> >>>>
> >>>> P.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]>
> >
> > wrote:
> >>>>> All -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining
> >>>>> or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding
> >>>>> standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the
> >>>>> context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously,
> >>>>> existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode
> >>>>> and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC
> >>>>> email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any
> >>>>> ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
> >>>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
> >>>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a
> >>>>> focus on the Web.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conferenc
> >>>>> e /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
> >>>>>
> >>>>> for examples.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Carl
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
> >>>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
> >>>>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
> >>>>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
> >>>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Cameron,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
> >>>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
> >>>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
> >>>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
> >>>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
> >>>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
> >>>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in
> >>>>> the future.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Suchith
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
> >>>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
> >>>>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> >>>>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
> >>>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Patrick, others,
> >>>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
> >>>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
> >>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
> >>>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
> >>>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
> >>>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
> >>>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
> >>>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
> >>>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
> >>>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
> >>>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
> >>>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
> >>>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
> >>>>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Patrick,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
> >>>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
> >>>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
> >>>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the
> >>>>> needed support for this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
> >>>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Suchith
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From:
> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces
> >>>>> @ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
> >>>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
> >>>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
> >>>>> clone” by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lene Fischer
> >>>>> Associate Professor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
> >>>>> of Copenhagen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@i
> >>>>> g n.ku.dk>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fra:
> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-
> >>>>> b [hidden email]>]
> >>>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
> >>>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
> >>>>> Til:
> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
> >>>>> by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear OSGEO,
> >>>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
> >>>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
> >>>>> for a data format?
> >>>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and
> >>>>> collective response encouraged.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
> >>>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
> >>>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
> >>>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the
> >>>>> pursuit of Openness].”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clo
> >>>>> n e/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [First paragraph]
> >>>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
> >>>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
> >>>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
> >>>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
> >>>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
> >>>>> enjoyed for many years.
> >>>>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks much,
> >>>>> -Patrick
> >>>>> Project Manager
> >>>>> NASA World Wind
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Puneet Kishor
> >>>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
> >>>>> Creative Commons
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cameron Shorter,
> >>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> >>>>> LISAsoft
> >>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> >>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
> >>>>>
> >>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
> >>>>> +61 2
> >>>>> 9009 5099
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> >>>>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> >>>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> >>>>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
> >>>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> >>>>> University of Nottingham.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> >>>>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> >>>>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> >>>>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> >>>>> permitted by UK legislation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Board mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Board mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Cameron Shorter,
> >>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> >>> LISAsoft
> >>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> >>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
> >>>
> >>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> >>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> >>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
> >>>
> >>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> >>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
> >>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> >>> University of Nottingham.
> >>>
> >>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> >>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> >>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> >>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> >>> permitted by UK legislation.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Discuss mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Discuss mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Michael Gerlek
The ASPRS LAS committee has been roundly criticized in the past for not operating in an open, consensus-driven, transparent manner.

My personal feeling is that LAS - or any future lidar standard - is now too important a topic to be left to the ASPRS committee. The OGC model and the grass-roots, GeoJSON-style model both have their own pros and cons, admittedly, but at least with those two models you know where you stand.

-mpg



> On Mar 3, 2015, at 1:13 AM, Even Rouault <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
> relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
> natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
> format:
> http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
> Activities.html
>

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Stefan Keller
In reply to this post by Even Rouault-2
Hi,

2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Cameron,
...
> Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
> to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
> conformant implementations.

I'd wish Scott or somebody from OGC could comment on this (and this
thread in general).

>> * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
>> directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
>
> I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
> implementations that do support write capability.

Be aware that it's not only read/write support one should report and
request in order to make a standard format an alternative to
Shapefiles.
For ArcGIS it's also edit capabilities (for whatever reason...).

Yours, S.


2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Cameron,
>
>> It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
>> or promoting a specific lock in strategy.
>
> Of course. That was exactly my point.
>
>>
>> But we can:
>> * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
>> standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
>> that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
>> have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.
>
> With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
> relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
> natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
> format:
> http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
> Activities.html
>
> I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
> one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/
> and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
> implements it ;-)
>
>>
>> * Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
>> technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
>> interface.
>
> There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct
> interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions
> are already happening behind the scene ?
>
>>
>> Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
>> * I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
>> read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
>> difference.
>
> Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
> to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
> conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be
> similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it
> "proves" that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only
> implementations could not get the stamp!
>
>> * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
>> directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
>
> I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
> implementations that do support write capability.
>
>> * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
>> to write about it.
>>
>> On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
>> > Stefan,
>> >
>> > That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its
>> > products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers).
>> > Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the
>> > standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS.
>> >
>> > The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes
>> > his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by
>> > FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the
>> > Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the
>> > protocol had been at least opened...
>> >
>> > Even
>> >
>> >> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
>> >>
>> >> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
>> >> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
>> >> relevance:
>> >>
>> >> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
>> >> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
>> >> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages
>> >> -in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
>> >>
>> >> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
>> >> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
>> >> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
>> >> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
>> >> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
>> >>
>> >> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
>> >> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
>> >>
>> >> Yours, S.
>> >>
>> >> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand
> <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> Colleagues,
>> >>>
>> >>> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open
>> >>> Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand
>> >>> for and are working together in our common mission of making
>> >>> geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.
>> >>>
>> >>> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
>> >>> Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
>> >>> but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
>> >>> will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
>> >>> this.
>> >>>
>> >>> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
>> >>> possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
>> >>> the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
>> >>> progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
>> >>> developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
>> >>> dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
>> >>> Uruguay.
>> >>>
>> >>> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
>> >>> governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary
>> >>> vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from
>> >>> the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor
>> >>> wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will
>> >>> also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling
>> >>> externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have
>> >>> good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of
>> >>> friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
>> >>> increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries
>> >>> and with free and open source software, even poor schools in
>> >>> developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i
>> >>> know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these
>> >>> factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation
>> >>> forever.
>> >>>
>> >>> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
>> >>> birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
>> >>> to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
>> >>> like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
>> >>> able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
>> >>> education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
>> >>> developed and developing countries).
>> >>>
>> >>> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important
>> >>> lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did
>> >>> not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the
>> >>> importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam"
>> >>> which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo
>> >>> for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my
>> >>> abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best wishes,
>> >>>
>> >>> Suchith
>> >>>
>> >>> ________________________________________
>> >>> From: [hidden email]
>> >>> [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
>> >>> [[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
>> >>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
>> >>> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
>> >>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>
>> >>> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
>> >>> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
>> >>> standards program.
>> >>>
>> >>> Carl,
>> >>> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain
>> >>> how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how
>> >>> much effort / cost would be required to do so.
>> >>>
>> >>> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
>> >>> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
>> >>>
>> >>> Patrick,
>> >>> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
>> >>> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
>> >>> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
>> >>> the open letter with signatures).
>> >>>
>> >>> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
>> >>>> Paul,
>> >>>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
>> >>>> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
>> >>>> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
>> >>>> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your
>> >>>> kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a
>> >>>> healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are
>> >>>> even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
>> >>>> To: Carl Reed
>> >>>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
>> >>>> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
>> >>>> [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
>> >>>> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
>> >>>> ESRI
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Carl,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
>> >>>> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
>> >>>> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
>> >>>> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
>> >>>> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
>> >>>> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
>> >>>> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
>> >>>> supposedly supportive of".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Am I incorrect?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
>> >>>> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
>> >>>> OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
>> >>>> in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
>> >>>> everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
>> >>>> collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ATB,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> P.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >>>>> All -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining
>> >>>>> or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding
>> >>>>> standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the
>> >>>>> context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously,
>> >>>>> existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode
>> >>>>> and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC
>> >>>>> email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any
>> >>>>> ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>> >>>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>> >>>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a
>> >>>>> focus on the Web.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> or
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conferenc
>> >>>>> e /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> for examples.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Carl
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>> >>>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>> >>>>> [hidden email] ; [hidden email]
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>> >>>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Cameron,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>> >>>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>> >>>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>> >>>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>> >>>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>> >>>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>> >>>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in
>> >>>>> the future.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Suchith
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>> >>>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> >>>>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>> >>>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Patrick, others,
>> >>>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>> >>>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>> >>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>> >>>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>> >>>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>> >>>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>> >>>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>> >>>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>> >>>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>> >>>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>> >>>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>> >>>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>> >>>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> >>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi Patrick,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>> >>>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>> >>>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>> >>>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the
>> >>>>> needed support for this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>> >>>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Suchith
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>> From:
>> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces
>> >>>>> @ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>> >>>>> [[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>> >>>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
>> >>>>> clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> +1
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Lene Fischer
>> >>>>> Associate Professor
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>> >>>>> of Copenhagen
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@i
>> >>>>> g n.ku.dk>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Fra:
>> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-
>> >>>>> b [hidden email]>]
>> >>>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>> >>>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>> >>>>> Til:
>> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> >>>>> by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dear OSGEO,
>> >>>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>> >>>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>> >>>>> for a data format?
>> >>>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and
>> >>>>> collective response encouraged.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>> >>>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>> >>>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>> >>>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the
>> >>>>> pursuit of Openness].”
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clo
>> >>>>> n e/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [First paragraph]
>> >>>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>> >>>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>> >>>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>> >>>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>> >>>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>> >>>>> enjoyed for many years.
>> >>>>> [cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks much,
>> >>>>> -Patrick
>> >>>>> Project Manager
>> >>>>> NASA World Wind
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Puneet Kishor
>> >>>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>> >>>>> Creative Commons
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>> >>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> >>>>> LISAsoft
>> >>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> >>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>> >>>>> +61 2
>> >>>>> 9009 5099
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>> >>>>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>> >>>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete
>> >>>>> it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>> >>>>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>> >>>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>> >>>>> University of Nottingham.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>> >>>>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>> >>>>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>> >>>>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>> >>>>> permitted by UK legislation.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Board mailing list
>> >>>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Board mailing list
>> >>>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cameron Shorter,
>> >>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> >>> LISAsoft
>> >>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> >>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>> >>>
>> >>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
>> >>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
>> >>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>> >>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>> >>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>> >>> University of Nottingham.
>> >>>
>> >>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
>> >>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
>> >>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
>> >>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
>> >>> permitted by UK legislation.
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Discuss mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
> --
> Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
> http://www.spatialys.com
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Scott Simmons
(note: resend to make sure this gets on the lists)

Hi Stefan,

I will make a few comments!

GeoPackage: the OGC Compliance Program develops conformance test suites for OGC Standards after the Standards have been officially adopted.  This process takes time and requires thorough testing itself.  A GeoPackage test suite has not yet been completed, but you can see a list of tests and roadmap for test development here:


The most complete listing of implementations for GeoPackage is here:


With another registry here:


Yes, I know that the two registries have some differences - something we are working on in OGC to synchronize!

With respect to support of an OGC Standard by any organization, the OGC membership provides the Standards as free and open and thus, they can be implemented by anyone; we don’t rate nor comment on the degree to which an organization implements the Standard unless the implementation is submitted for formal Certification by OGC.

LiDAR: the OGC is certainly open to reviewing standardization of LiDAR and other point cloud data.  This thread has expressed interest for further discussion and I have been approached my other OGC members on the topic.  For anyone attending the upcoming OGC TC meeting in Barcelona - find me and we can talk LiDAR.  I will be happy to organize a telecon or face-to-face discussion at a future TC meeting to plan a way forward on this topic.  I also recommend that interested people bring up the subject on the OGC 3D Information Management Domain Working Group (3DIM DWG) mailing list:


Best Regards,
Scott

Scott Simmons
Executive Director, Standards Program
Open Geospatial Consortium (OGC)
tel +1 970 682 1922
mob +1 970 214 9467

The OGC: Making Location Count…




On Mar 3, 2015, at 1:18 AM, Stefan Keller <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Cameron,
...
Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
conformant implementations.

I'd wish Scott or somebody from OGC could comment on this (and this
thread in general).

* It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.

I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
implementations that do support write capability.

Be aware that it's not only read/write support one should report and
request in order to make a standard format an alternative to
Shapefiles.
For ArcGIS it's also edit capabilities (for whatever reason...).

Yours, S.


2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]>:
Hi Cameron,

It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
or promoting a specific lock in strategy.

Of course. That was exactly my point.


But we can:
* Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.

With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
format:
http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
Activities.html

I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/
and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
implements it ;-)


* Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
interface.

There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct
interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions
are already happening behind the scene ?


Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
* I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
difference.

Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be
similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it
"proves" that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only
implementations could not get the stamp!

* It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.

I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
implementations that do support write capability.

* However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
to write about it.

On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
Stefan,

That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its
products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers).
Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the
standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS.

The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes
his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by
FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the
Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the
protocol had been at least opened...

Even

Dear all, dear OSGeo Board

While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
relevance:

In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages
-in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")

Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
(and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")

I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.

Yours, S.

2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand
<[hidden email]>:
Colleagues,

I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open
Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand
for and are working together in our common mission of making
geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.

"Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
this.

"Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
Uruguay.

We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary
vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from
the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor
wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will
also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling
externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have
good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of
friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.

Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries
and with free and open source software, even poor schools in
developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i
know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these
factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation
forever.

I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
developed and developing countries).

So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important
lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did
not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the
importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam"
which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo
for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my
abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: [hidden email]
[[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
[[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
standards program.

Carl,
I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain
how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how
much effort / cost would be required to do so.

The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
motivation to initiate such development of a standard.

Patrick,
For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
the open letter with signatures).

On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
Paul,
I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
*engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your
kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a
healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are
even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Ramsey [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
To: Carl Reed
Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
[hidden email] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
[Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
ESRI

Carl,

No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
"does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
"member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
supposedly supportive of".

Am I incorrect?

WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.

ATB,

P.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]>

wrote:
All -

The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining
or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding
standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the
context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously,
existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode
and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC
email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any
ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.

http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a
focus on the Web.

or

http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conferenc
e /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf

for examples.

Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.

Regards

Carl


-----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
[hidden email] ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI


Hi Cameron,

Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.

Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.

Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?

I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in
the future.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
[hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Patrick, others,
OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API

I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.

0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
4. If needed, collect signatures.
5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter

On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
<[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
wrote:
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the
needed support for this.

Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
meeting's agenda items. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Suchith


________________________________________
From:
[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
l ists.osgeo.org>
[[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces
@ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
[[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
clone” by ESRI

+1


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
of Copenhagen

MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@i
g n.ku.dk>>


[cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]



Fra:
[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
l ists.osgeo.org>
[mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-
b [hidden email]>]
På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
Til:
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
by ESRI

Dear OSGEO,
For what our good name is worth. . .
Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
for a data format?
Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and
collective response encouraged.

Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the
pursuit of Openness].”

The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clo
n e/

[First paragraph]
We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
enjoyed for many years.
[cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]

Thanks much,
-Patrick
Project Manager
NASA World Wind






--
Puneet Kishor
Manager, Science and Data Policy
Creative Commons



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
+61 2
9009 5099




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete
it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board

--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099

_______________________________________________
ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Howard Butler-3
In reply to this post by Even Rouault-2

> On Mar 3, 2015, at 12:13 AM, Even Rouault <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
>> It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
>> or promoting a specific lock in strategy.
>
> Of course. That was exactly my point.

OSGeo can wag its finger at people and say "drugs are bad" all it wants, but that isn't going to change the outcome in any substantive way. The reality is if zLAS is more convenient for its users, and it is better than open alternatives like LAZ, people are going to use it. On technical merits, it might be that zLAS is marginally better than LAZ in some situations, but LAZ can still evolve if people put the resources into it. On the ecosystem merits, it might be that zLAS is super convenient for Arc* users who don't want to ever tread outside their gated community. Whatever the reasons, zLAS will or won't gain traction based on the marketplace determining its usefulness -- not organizations like OSGeo or even ASPRS crying foul.

The only worthy nit to pick is with zLAS's name being derived from or similar to the ASPRS LAS name. Whether intentional or not, this implies some kind of relationship between the two things. If ASPRS is to make that complaint, however, ESRI can rightly point at LASzip (but not LAZ) for the same name-confusing infraction.

Personally, I'm extremely skeptical. LAZ has tons of uptake, there's already a ton of data available in the format, and pretty much every significant point cloud/LiDAR software out there *besides* ESRI implements at least read support for it (using the laszip.org codebase). Any other compressed point cloud format would have to be many *times* better than LAZ to be closed and overcome it. A few percent better isn't going to matter.

The situation is way better than it was in the geospatial imagery space say 15 years ago or even today, where closed commercial formats still control much of the market.  LAZ has commoditized the fat part of the point cloud compression market so effectively that there is little headroom for a commercial approach to operate except for strategic situations like zLAS. In my opinion, zLAS is a canary indicator of the success, not failure, of LAZ. It's an attempt by ESRI to innovate in an area that matters to its users in a way that serves ESRI's business interests.  Everything else that's interesting is already covered by LAZ.

LAZ has had very few resources put into it. Martin Isenburg developed it, and I helped to license it, package it, and release it as an open source library. Beyond that, no significant institutional support has come along to support specification development, to support standardization, or even to pay for new features like alternative spatial organization like zLAS supports. If the community values these things, it needs to pay for it or start putting in the time/effort to make it happen. Thus far, it hasn't.


>> But we can:
>> * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
>> standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
>> that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
>> have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.
>
> With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
> relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
> natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
> format:
> http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
> Activities.html

As Michael mentioned, ASPRS is poorly suited for development of technical software specifications. There is no standard ratification procedure, no procedural way to resolve disputes, no typical standards-body IP protections, and no rules to ensure the playing field is even from the start. Of course, the ASPRS LAS committee can say, "go use E57, which is lives inside ASTM and has all those operational features you request," but very few softwares use that format. LAS was there first and it was good enough. It's neither the best nor the easiest to use, and it doesn't cover the problem of point cloud data transmission most generically or efficiently. It covers the problem well enough, and it has wide support in a number of softwares (sales pitch: even in your browser with http://plas.io !). It's going to be around for a llllooonnnggg time, and shapefile or GeoTIFF are prefect comparisons.

> I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
> one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/ 
> and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
> implements it ;-)

There's actually two implementations now, though the second implementation https://github.com/verma/laz-perf is derived from the original LASzip codebase. The second, which my company developed, allows LAZ to work in Javascript in addition to C/C++ (for http://plas.io and now http://potree.org), and it has a substantial test suite that could be considered "conformance tests". The real specification of how the format should be written is still the LASzip software at http://laszip.org however. I discussed the challenges of all this at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lasroom/a42rWaPJJh4/sAy-4rc3if0J for those interested in reading more.

Martin and I chose the LGPL license for LASzip to prevent a commercial player from disrupting the format, which was only specified in software, with slightly incompatible-but-same implementations of LAZ using the LASzip software itself. It doesn't have the stability of a full specification, or the institutional heft of a ratified standard, but it was enough protection to get it off the ground without it collapsing on itself. Is zLAS is a manifestation of ESRI's frustration, fear, and/or incompatibility with working within the ground rules of LGPL software? Or is it ESRI trying to exert its monopoly power in desktop GIS into a domain (point clouds, LiDAR) in which it has a weak foothold? Conveniently both, I would think.

The solution to prevent uptake of things like zLAS is investment in open stuff like LAZ -- not complaining about zLAS. Demonstrate its folly to users who try it by making LAZ so much better and useable in places that zLAS can never play (for the third time, go see LAZ in your non-mobile browser by choosing one of the files in the Browse drop-down at http://plas.io ). Make its features match or beat the purported features of the closed formats. Specify and standardize its implementations to satisfy those who require such efforts. Institutions that value open data need to invest at the software level to keep it open. It doesn't just happen on its own.

Howard


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Suchith Anand
In reply to this post by Scott Simmons
Hi Scott,

Thank you for OGC's openness to discuss ideas for reviewing standardisation of LiDAR and other point cloud data. I have informed our LiDAR colleagues to be in contact with you directly to discuss ideas further . It is also good to know that there will be Standards Openness ad hoc session at the upcoming TC meeting in Barcelona on Monday (0900 - 0955)  which might be of interest to some of our members who are planning to attend the TC meetings.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Scott Simmons [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:15 PM
To: Stefan Keller
Cc: OSGeo Discussions; Even Rouault; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

(note: resend to make sure this gets on the lists)

Hi Stefan,

I will make a few comments!

GeoPackage: the OGC Compliance Program develops conformance test suites for OGC Standards after the Standards have been officially adopted.  This process takes time and requires thorough testing itself.  A GeoPackage test suite has not yet been completed, but you can see a list of tests and roadmap for test development here:

http://cite.opengeospatial.org/roadmap

The most complete listing of implementations for GeoPackage is here:

http://www.geopackage.org/#implementations

With another registry here:

http://www.opengeospatial.org/resource/products/byspec

Yes, I know that the two registries have some differences - something we are working on in OGC to synchronize!

With respect to support of an OGC Standard by any organization, the OGC membership provides the Standards as free and open and thus, they can be implemented by anyone; we don’t rate nor comment on the degree to which an organization implements the Standard unless the implementation is submitted for formal Certification by OGC.

LiDAR: the OGC is certainly open to reviewing standardization of LiDAR and other point cloud data.  This thread has expressed interest for further discussion and I have been approached my other OGC members on the topic.  For anyone attending the upcoming OGC TC meeting in Barcelona - find me and we can talk LiDAR.  I will be happy to organize a telecon or face-to-face discussion at a future TC meeting to plan a way forward on this topic.  I also recommend that interested people bring up the subject on the OGC 3D Information Management Domain Working Group (3DIM DWG) mailing list:

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>

Best Regards,
Scott

Scott Simmons
Executive Director, Standards Program
Open Geospatial Consortium (OGC)
tel +1 970 682 1922
mob +1 970 214 9467
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>

The OGC: Making Location Count…
www.opengeospatial.org<http://www.opengeospatial.org>




On Mar 3, 2015, at 1:18 AM, Stefan Keller <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Hi,

2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
Hi Cameron,
...
Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
conformant implementations.

I'd wish Scott or somebody from OGC could comment on this (and this
thread in general).

* It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.

I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
implementations that do support write capability.

Be aware that it's not only read/write support one should report and
request in order to make a standard format an alternative to
Shapefiles.
For ArcGIS it's also edit capabilities (for whatever reason...).

Yours, S.


2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>:
Hi Cameron,

It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
or promoting a specific lock in strategy.

Of course. That was exactly my point.


But we can:
* Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.

With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
format:
http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
Activities.html

I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/
and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
implements it ;-)


* Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
interface.

There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct
interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions
are already happening behind the scene ?


Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
* I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
difference.

Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be
similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it
"proves" that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only
implementations could not get the stamp!

* It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.

I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
implementations that do support write capability.

* However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
to write about it.

On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
Stefan,

That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its
products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers).
Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the
standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS.

The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes
his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by
FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the
Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the
protocol had been at least opened...

Even

Dear all, dear OSGeo Board

While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
relevance:

In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages
-in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")

Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
(and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")

I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.

Yours, S.

2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand
<[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>:
Colleagues,

I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open
Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand
for and are working together in our common mission of making
geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.

"Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
this.

"Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
Uruguay.

We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary
vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from
the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor
wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will
also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling
externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have
good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of
friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.

Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries
and with free and open source software, even poor schools in
developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i
know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these
factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation
forever.

I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
developed and developing countries).

So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important
lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did
not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the
importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam"
which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo
for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my
abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
[[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
[[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
standards program.

Carl,
I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain
how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how
much effort / cost would be required to do so.

The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
motivation to initiate such development of a standard.

Patrick,
For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
the open letter with signatures).

On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
Paul,
I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
*engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your
kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a
healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are
even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
To: Carl Reed
Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
[Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
ESRI

Carl,

No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
"does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
"member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
supposedly supportive of".

Am I incorrect?

WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.

ATB,

P.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>

wrote:
All -

The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining
or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding
standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the
context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously,
existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode
and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC
email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any
ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.

http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a
focus on the Web.

or

http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conferenc
e /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf

for examples.

Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.

Regards

Carl


-----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
Cc: [hidden email] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
[hidden email] ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI


Hi Cameron,

Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.

Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.

Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?

I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in
the future.

Best wishes,

Suchith

________________________________________
From: Cameron Shorter [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
Cc: [hidden email]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
[hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Patrick, others,
OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API

I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.

0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
4. If needed, collect signatures.
5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter

On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
<[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
wrote:
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the
needed support for this.

Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
meeting's agenda items. Thanks.

Best wishes,

Suchith


________________________________________
From:
[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
l ists.osgeo.org>
[[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces
@ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
[[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
clone” by ESRI

+1


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
of Copenhagen

MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:lfi@i
g n.ku.dk>>


[cid:image001.gif@01D052C3.B23B1060]



Fra:
[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
l ists.osgeo.org>
[mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-
b [hidden email]>]
På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
Til:
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
by ESRI

Dear OSGEO,
For what our good name is worth. . .
Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
for a data format?
Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and
collective response encouraged.

Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the
pursuit of Openness].”

The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clo
n e/

[First paragraph]
We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
enjoyed for many years.
[cid:image002.jpg@01D052C3.B23B1060]

Thanks much,
-Patrick
Project Manager
NASA World Wind






--
Puneet Kishor
Manager, Science and Data Policy
Creative Commons



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
+61 2
9009 5099




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete
it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board

--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F +61 2 9009 5099

_______________________________________________
ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com




This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss