Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Alfredo Muela-Romero
Hi everyone,

My name is Alfredo Muela. I am a software engineer working for a company named PDS.

We are in need of raster functionality with ArcSDE. One of the ways that we are considering (and the most likely) is to extend the existing FDO provider and releasing our implementation back to the community.

In order to do that, we are assessing the effort that it would take. I have been looking at the existing open source code in the GDAL provider (read-only raster data) trying to extrapolate the work needed in the ArcSDE provider.

If you have any suggestions or even a roadmap already defined to achieved that goal, it would appreciate them.


Regards,
Alfredo.

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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Johan Van de Wauw
Do you need read-only access or read/write?

In case you need read only access, I wonder why you would not use WMS or arcsde gdal driver:  http://www.gdal.org/frmt_sde.html ?

Johan


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Alfredo Muela-Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

My name is Alfredo Muela. I am a software engineer working for a company named PDS.

We are in need of raster functionality with ArcSDE. One of the ways that we are considering (and the most likely) is to extend the existing FDO provider and releasing our implementation back to the community.

In order to do that, we are assessing the effort that it would take. I have been looking at the existing open source code in the GDAL provider (read-only raster data) trying to extrapolate the work needed in the ArcSDE provider.

If you have any suggestions or even a roadmap already defined to achieved that goal, it would appreciate them.


Regards,
Alfredo.

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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Alfredo Muela-Romero
Hi Johan,

First of all, thanks for your reply.

Read-only access would be the first step. Actually, as far as we have discussed it with the stakeholder, it might be the only functionality they need.

Regarding the WMS FDO Provider, our customer's data stores are not OGC WMS-based. Therefore, I discarded the option when I read the description of the FDO provider.

Related to the ArcSDE GDAL driver you point (thanks for the link, by the way), our first approach was to keep using the FDO architecture. If extending the current ArcSDE FDO Provider meant a lot of effort, we would need to ponder using the C API SDK (or in this case the driver suggested).

Currently, we have not clarified yet all the details on the raster capabilities that will be required (for example, "is reading raster catalogs a requirement?"). While we are gathering all that information we are also trying to evaluate the amount of effort required for the different options.

Would you suggest going for the GDAL driver rather than completing the ArcSDE FDO Provider? (in case read-only access is the requirement and any non supported features, such as the use of catalogs or NODATA masks, are needed).


Cheers,
Alfredo.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Johan Van de Wauw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you need read-only access or read/write?

In case you need read only access, I wonder why you would not use WMS or arcsde gdal driver:  http://www.gdal.org/frmt_sde.html ?

Johan


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Alfredo Muela-Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

My name is Alfredo Muela. I am a software engineer working for a company named PDS.

We are in need of raster functionality with ArcSDE. One of the ways that we are considering (and the most likely) is to extend the existing FDO provider and releasing our implementation back to the community.

In order to do that, we are assessing the effort that it would take. I have been looking at the existing open source code in the GDAL provider (read-only raster data) trying to extrapolate the work needed in the ArcSDE provider.

If you have any suggestions or even a roadmap already defined to achieved that goal, it would appreciate them.


Regards,
Alfredo.

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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Jackie Ng
You're actually doing something that to my knowledge has not actually being achieved before in an FDO provider: A provider that supports *both* raster and vector data.

Having said that, and having no knowledge of ArcSDE itself, a conceptual overview of the work required would probably be as follows:

 * Extend the provider's FdoIDescribeSchema to include raster feature classes in the FDO logical schema
 * Extend the provider's FdoISelect to handle queries involving raster FDO properties
 * Implement the FdoIRaster interface
 * Implement ArcSDE's FdoIReader::GetRaster that returns your FdoIRaster implementation

Even though the WMS FDO provider was out of your consideration, that provider and the GDAL provider are the only raster-based FDO providers around and may serve as a useful reference point in implementation.

Please note that very few of us here have paid the ESRI admission fee so community advice, testing and feedback on your ArcSDE provider enhancement work (if any) will be somewhat limited.

- Jackie
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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Alfredo Muela-Romero
Hi Jackie,

Thanks for the detailed reply :)

I am already taking a closer look at the GDAL FDO provider in order to have a rough measure of the amount of work. My main concern is that it doesn't look like there is a great deal of complexity or amount of work. I put that as a concern because I take it as "I must be missing something, otherwise it would have been implemented by now"... unless it is not that useful for the community and nobody thought it was worthy.

Regarding the testing part, if we released the code, it would have been previously tested up to a significant minimum. In the end this would be work that we are delivering to our client and it is important to us. Related to the way to release it, we could discuss at a later point the most convenient way (patch trunk? fork trunk?).

I will take a look at the WMS FDO source code as well. I was thinking about creating a roadmap to reach the goal and share it here, let me know if you think that would be too much traffic in the list.


Cheers,
Alfredo.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Jackie Ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
You're actually doing something that to my knowledge has not actually being
achieved before in an FDO provider: A provider that supports *both* raster
and vector data.

Having said that, and having no knowledge of ArcSDE itself, a conceptual
overview of the work required would probably be as follows:

 * Extend the provider's FdoIDescribeSchema to include raster feature
classes in the FDO logical schema
 * Extend the provider's FdoISelect to handle queries involving raster FDO
properties
 * Implement the FdoIRaster interface
 * Implement ArcSDE's FdoIReader::GetRaster that returns your FdoIRaster
implementation

Even though the WMS FDO provider was out of your consideration, that
provider and the GDAL provider are the only raster-based FDO providers
around and may serve as a useful reference point in implementation.

Please note that very few of us here have paid the ESRI admission fee so
community advice, testing and feedback on your ArcSDE provider enhancement
work (if any) will be somewhat limited.

- Jackie



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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Johan Van de Wauw
In reply to this post by Alfredo Muela-Romero
Just a quick note. 
The reason why I would consider using WMS or GDAL rather than updating the fdo driver:
* If you have access to the arcgis server it may be reasonably easy to configure a wms (if it is a recent version of arcgis server and the license [1] permits you to do so). Configuring this has the advantage that it can also be used in other applications apart from mapguide and no programming is required.
Apart from that, this solution seems more futureproof. I'm not too sure about the future of arcsde. WMS will probably be supported far longer.
* If you expand the arcSDE driver in GDAL all applications that use gdal could use the new driver. Actually more people could be testing and/or maintaining your changes.


Johan


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Alfredo Muela-Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Johan,

First of all, thanks for your reply.

Read-only access would be the first step. Actually, as far as we have discussed it with the stakeholder, it might be the only functionality they need.

Regarding the WMS FDO Provider, our customer's data stores are not OGC WMS-based. Therefore, I discarded the option when I read the description of the FDO provider.

Related to the ArcSDE GDAL driver you point (thanks for the link, by the way), our first approach was to keep using the FDO architecture. If extending the current ArcSDE FDO Provider meant a lot of effort, we would need to ponder using the C API SDK (or in this case the driver suggested).

Currently, we have not clarified yet all the details on the raster capabilities that will be required (for example, "is reading raster catalogs a requirement?"). While we are gathering all that information we are also trying to evaluate the amount of effort required for the different options.

Would you suggest going for the GDAL driver rather than completing the ArcSDE FDO Provider? (in case read-only access is the requirement and any non supported features, such as the use of catalogs or NODATA masks, are needed).


Cheers,
Alfredo.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Johan Van de Wauw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you need read-only access or read/write?

In case you need read only access, I wonder why you would not use WMS or arcsde gdal driver:  http://www.gdal.org/frmt_sde.html ?

Johan


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Alfredo Muela-Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

My name is Alfredo Muela. I am a software engineer working for a company named PDS.

We are in need of raster functionality with ArcSDE. One of the ways that we are considering (and the most likely) is to extend the existing FDO provider and releasing our implementation back to the community.

In order to do that, we are assessing the effort that it would take. I have been looking at the existing open source code in the GDAL provider (read-only raster data) trying to extrapolate the work needed in the ArcSDE provider.

If you have any suggestions or even a roadmap already defined to achieved that goal, it would appreciate them.


Regards,
Alfredo.

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Re: ArcSDE provider + raster data

Alfredo Muela-Romero
Hi Johan,

Thanks for the suggestion of tuning the ArcGIS server! It was something that I certainly had not consider. I will gather some information about its feasibility on the client's environment. Just a double check that I understood it: the already existing WMS FDO provider can be used to access raster data in read-only mode by enabling the WMS in the ArcGIS server (which functionality from [1] does it map to? GIS Web Services?), correct?

Regarding your second point, I am confused. How would I access to the ArcSDE raster data by extending the FDO ArcSDE driver with GDAL? As far as I understand, the model used in ArcSDE is not GDAL. Could you elaborate this further, please?


Cheers,
Alfredo.



On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Johan Van de Wauw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just a quick note. 
The reason why I would consider using WMS or GDAL rather than updating the fdo driver:
* If you have access to the arcgis server it may be reasonably easy to configure a wms (if it is a recent version of arcgis server and the license [1] permits you to do so). Configuring this has the advantage that it can also be used in other applications apart from mapguide and no programming is required.
Apart from that, this solution seems more futureproof. I'm not too sure about the future of arcsde. WMS will probably be supported far longer.
* If you expand the arcSDE driver in GDAL all applications that use gdal could use the new driver. Actually more people could be testing and/or maintaining your changes.


Johan


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Alfredo Muela-Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Johan,

First of all, thanks for your reply.

Read-only access would be the first step. Actually, as far as we have discussed it with the stakeholder, it might be the only functionality they need.

Regarding the WMS FDO Provider, our customer's data stores are not OGC WMS-based. Therefore, I discarded the option when I read the description of the FDO provider.

Related to the ArcSDE GDAL driver you point (thanks for the link, by the way), our first approach was to keep using the FDO architecture. If extending the current ArcSDE FDO Provider meant a lot of effort, we would need to ponder using the C API SDK (or in this case the driver suggested).

Currently, we have not clarified yet all the details on the raster capabilities that will be required (for example, "is reading raster catalogs a requirement?"). While we are gathering all that information we are also trying to evaluate the amount of effort required for the different options.

Would you suggest going for the GDAL driver rather than completing the ArcSDE FDO Provider? (in case read-only access is the requirement and any non supported features, such as the use of catalogs or NODATA masks, are needed).


Cheers,
Alfredo.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Johan Van de Wauw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you need read-only access or read/write?

In case you need read only access, I wonder why you would not use WMS or arcsde gdal driver:  http://www.gdal.org/frmt_sde.html ?

Johan


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Alfredo Muela-Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

My name is Alfredo Muela. I am a software engineer working for a company named PDS.

We are in need of raster functionality with ArcSDE. One of the ways that we are considering (and the most likely) is to extend the existing FDO provider and releasing our implementation back to the community.

In order to do that, we are assessing the effort that it would take. I have been looking at the existing open source code in the GDAL provider (read-only raster data) trying to extrapolate the work needed in the ArcSDE provider.

If you have any suggestions or even a roadmap already defined to achieved that goal, it would appreciate them.


Regards,
Alfredo.

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