[QGIS-Developer] The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

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[QGIS-Developer] The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

Andrea Giudiceandrea
Hi all,
it seems that the build of the weekly snapshots of qgis-dev from OSGeo4W as
standalone installer for Windows stopped in February: the last one is
QGIS-OSGeo4W-3.11.0-8 25-Feb-2020.

Regards.

Andrea



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Re: The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

Jürgen E. Fischer
Hi Andrea,

On Wed, 18. Mar 2020 at 16:18:39 -0700, Andrea Giudiceandrea wrote:
> it seems that the build of the weekly snapshots of qgis-dev from OSGeo4W as
> standalone installer for Windows stopped in February: the last one is
> QGIS-OSGeo4W-3.11.0-8 25-Feb-2020.

Yes. proj-dev-data is to huge for NSIS.  Best install via OSGeo4W until grids
are downloadable via proj.


Jürgen

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Re: The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

Nyall Dawson
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 16:49, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Andrea,
>
> On Wed, 18. Mar 2020 at 16:18:39 -0700, Andrea Giudiceandrea wrote:
> > it seems that the build of the weekly snapshots of qgis-dev from OSGeo4W as
> > standalone installer for Windows stopped in February: the last one is
> > QGIS-OSGeo4W-3.11.0-8 25-Feb-2020.
>
> Yes. proj-dev-data is to huge for NSIS.  Best install via OSGeo4W until grids
> are downloadable via proj.

There's no plans to use proj 7's built in auto grid download. This
isn't designed for GUI applications like QGIS -- if we did, we'd get
UI hangs all over the place while QGIS is trying to transform
coordinates, and proj blocks and waits for the download to occur.

What we should instead do is just fire up a background task on first
install to download ALL THE GRIDS FOR EVERYWHERE form the proj CDN and
install them locally. Problem solved.... FOREVER! ;)

Nyall

>
>
> Jürgen
>
> --
> Jürgen E. Fischer           norBIT GmbH             Tel. +49-4931-918175-31
> Dipl.-Inf. (FH)             Rheinstraße 13          Fax. +49-4931-918175-50
> Software Engineer           D-26506 Norden            https://www.norbit.de
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Re: The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

Régis Haubourg
We would need to have a parameter to set the download location, as http or file resource so that remote site with no internet available can still install QGIS then... 

Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 07:53, Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 16:49, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Andrea,
>
> On Wed, 18. Mar 2020 at 16:18:39 -0700, Andrea Giudiceandrea wrote:
> > it seems that the build of the weekly snapshots of qgis-dev from OSGeo4W as
> > standalone installer for Windows stopped in February: the last one is
> > QGIS-OSGeo4W-3.11.0-8 25-Feb-2020.
>
> Yes. proj-dev-data is to huge for NSIS.  Best install via OSGeo4W until grids
> are downloadable via proj.

There's no plans to use proj 7's built in auto grid download. This
isn't designed for GUI applications like QGIS -- if we did, we'd get
UI hangs all over the place while QGIS is trying to transform
coordinates, and proj blocks and waits for the download to occur.

What we should instead do is just fire up a background task on first
install to download ALL THE GRIDS FOR EVERYWHERE form the proj CDN and
install them locally. Problem solved.... FOREVER! ;)

Nyall

>
>
> Jürgen
>
> --
> Jürgen E. Fischer           norBIT GmbH             Tel. +49-4931-918175-31
> Dipl.-Inf. (FH)             Rheinstraße 13          Fax. +49-4931-918175-50
> Software Engineer           D-26506 Norden            https://www.norbit.de
> QGIS release manager (PSC)  Germany                    IRC: jef on FreeNode
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
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Re: The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

pcav
In reply to this post by Nyall Dawson
Hi Nyall

Il 19/03/20 07:53, Nyall Dawson ha scritto:

> What we should instead do is just fire up a background task on first
> install to download ALL THE GRIDS FOR EVERYWHERE form the proj CDN and
> install them locally. Problem solved.... FOREVER! ;)

what a pleasure to hear - say it again please :)
Cheers.
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[QGIS-Developer] Proj 7 auto grid download

Martin Dobias
In reply to this post by Nyall Dawson
Hi Nyall

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 7:53 AM Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 16:49, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Yes. proj-dev-data is to huge for NSIS.  Best install via OSGeo4W until grids
> > are downloadable via proj.
>
> There's no plans to use proj 7's built in auto grid download. This
> isn't designed for GUI applications like QGIS -- if we did, we'd get
> UI hangs all over the place while QGIS is trying to transform
> coordinates, and proj blocks and waits for the download to occur.

Do you have some thoughts on how we are going to handle this in QGIS?
(Apart from that plan to download all grids on the first start :-))

My assumption was that QGIS would be shipped with no grids (simply too
much data to ship in installers), and if there would be a
transformation available with a missing grid, QGIS would show a
warning and let user download such a grid file with one click? Or did
you have something else in mind?

Cheers
Martin
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Re: The build of weekly snapshots stopped in February

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by Régis Haubourg
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Régis Haubourg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We would need to have a parameter to set the download location, as http or file resource so that remote site with no internet available can still install QGIS then...

I wouldn't suggest doing it as part of the install. I'd do it as a
post-install, first launch step (if internet connectivity is
available)

Nyall

>
> Le jeu. 19 mars 2020 à 07:53, Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 16:49, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Andrea,
>> >
>> > On Wed, 18. Mar 2020 at 16:18:39 -0700, Andrea Giudiceandrea wrote:
>> > > it seems that the build of the weekly snapshots of qgis-dev from OSGeo4W as
>> > > standalone installer for Windows stopped in February: the last one is
>> > > QGIS-OSGeo4W-3.11.0-8 25-Feb-2020.
>> >
>> > Yes. proj-dev-data is to huge for NSIS.  Best install via OSGeo4W until grids
>> > are downloadable via proj.
>>
>> There's no plans to use proj 7's built in auto grid download. This
>> isn't designed for GUI applications like QGIS -- if we did, we'd get
>> UI hangs all over the place while QGIS is trying to transform
>> coordinates, and proj blocks and waits for the download to occur.
>>
>> What we should instead do is just fire up a background task on first
>> install to download ALL THE GRIDS FOR EVERYWHERE form the proj CDN and
>> install them locally. Problem solved.... FOREVER! ;)
>>
>> Nyall
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Jürgen
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jürgen E. Fischer           norBIT GmbH             Tel. +49-4931-918175-31
>> > Dipl.-Inf. (FH)             Rheinstraße 13          Fax. +49-4931-918175-50
>> > Software Engineer           D-26506 Norden            https://www.norbit.de
>> > QGIS release manager (PSC)  Germany                    IRC: jef on FreeNode
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > QGIS-Developer mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by Martin Dobias
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 22:04, Martin Dobias <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Nyall
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 7:53 AM Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 16:49, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes. proj-dev-data is to huge for NSIS.  Best install via OSGeo4W until grids
> > > are downloadable via proj.
> >
> > There's no plans to use proj 7's built in auto grid download. This
> > isn't designed for GUI applications like QGIS -- if we did, we'd get
> > UI hangs all over the place while QGIS is trying to transform
> > coordinates, and proj blocks and waits for the download to occur.
>
> Do you have some thoughts on how we are going to handle this in QGIS?
> (Apart from that plan to download all grids on the first start :-))
>
> My assumption was that QGIS would be shipped with no grids (simply too
> much data to ship in installers), and if there would be a
> transformation available with a missing grid, QGIS would show a
> warning and let user download such a grid file with one click? Or did
> you have something else in mind?

That's basically what we have now. When a grid is desirable (and not
installed) you get a warning in the message bar, which you can click
to open a dialog which explains the situation and provides a download
link, and a button to "install" (copy to the right place) the
downloaded file.

The only extra steps we could do to improve this would be:
- Avoid the "click to download in your browser" link, and instead have
a button which downloads in the background of QGIS itself and
auto-installs after download
- Take it another step further, and just immediately trigger the
download task when we first show that warning
- Avoid all these issues and download EVERYTHING for EVERYWHERE at
first startup ;)

Nyall


>
> Cheers
> Martin
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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Andreas Neumann-4
Hi Nyall,

> That's basically what we have now. When a grid is desirable (and not
> installed) you get a warning in the message bar, which you can click
> to open a dialog which explains the situation and provides a download
> link, and a button to "install" (copy to the right place) the
> downloaded file.
>
> The only extra steps we could do to improve this would be:
> - Avoid the "click to download in your browser" link, and instead have
> a button which downloads in the background of QGIS itself and
> auto-installs after download
> - Take it another step further, and just immediately trigger the
> download task when we first show that warning
I would be in favor of this option
> - Avoid all these issues and download EVERYTHING for EVERYWHERE at
> first startup ;)

Isn't that potentially a quite large amount of data? Most QGIS users
that I know mainly work in one country or region and only need one
gridshift file. Of course there are exceptions.

Greetings,

Andreas


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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Jürgen E. Fischer
Hi Andreas,

On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 08:12:35 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> Isn't that potentially a quite large amount of data? Most QGIS users that I
> know mainly work in one country or region and only need one gridshift file.
> Of course there are exceptions.

Yes. proj-dev-data is >500MB (also containing two extra huge grids with of 80
MB & 73 MB each; the latter for just one state in Germany).

Putting it in the regular proj directory from within QGIS might also not be
possible, when a regular user runs QGIS.  And internet access to download is
also not a given.

In OSGeo4W this isn't a problem.  Downloading from within the standalone
installer could be an option, but that kind of ruins the point of having a
standalone installer.


Jürgen

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Andreas Neumann-4
Hi, Jürgen,

Thanks for explaining the situation. 500MB is definitely too large and
it would be useless data for most users.

Might it be an option to store grid-shift files alternatively also in
the QGIS user directory - I mean the folder where the user stores his
settings, plugins, expressions. I agree that many users wouldn't have
access to the main install directory.

Alternatively, would it be possible to integrate an additional
step/choice in the standalone installer that would download grid-shift
files of interest for the user?

Thanks,

Andreas

Am 20.03.20 um 09:09 schrieb Jürgen E. Fischer:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 08:12:35 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
>> Isn't that potentially a quite large amount of data? Most QGIS users that I
>> know mainly work in one country or region and only need one gridshift file.
>> Of course there are exceptions.
> Yes. proj-dev-data is >500MB (also containing two extra huge grids with of 80
> MB & 73 MB each; the latter for just one state in Germany).
>
> Putting it in the regular proj directory from within QGIS might also not be
> possible, when a regular user runs QGIS.  And internet access to download is
> also not a given.
>
> In OSGeo4W this isn't a problem.  Downloading from within the standalone
> installer could be an option, but that kind of ruins the point of having a
> standalone installer.
>
>
> Jürgen
>
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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Jeremy Palmer-3
In reply to this post by Jürgen E. Fischer
On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 08:12:35 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> Isn't that potentially a quite large amount of data? Most QGIS users that I
> know mainly work in one country or region and only need one gridshift file.
> Of course there are exceptions.

Why not ship with the same grids that come with proj-datumgrid (or what QGIS typically ships in MacOSX and Windows. Then all other full grids need to be downloaded on request. This way, the user experience is no worse than it is currently, and there is the added benefit of being able to download grids when needed quickly.

Cheers
Jeremy
 

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Jürgen E. Fischer
In reply to this post by Andreas Neumann-4
Hi Andreas,

On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 09:21:00 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> Alternatively, would it be possible to integrate an additional step/choice
> in the standalone installer that would download grid-shift files of interest
> for the user?

How do we tell which shift files are of interest?

I guess that one reason for it being one big blob is that nobody knows the
extent of interest for all the individual grids (or CRSes).

I don't know which grids you use, you probably don't know which I use - and
we're even on a close longitude. ;)

Picking from 245 grids is probably not desirable either.


Jürgen

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Andreas Neumann-4

Hi Jürgen,

I thought that we could present a list of available grids (e.g. from https://github.com/OSGeo/PROJ-data ) to the user where all grids are deactivated by default and the user could opt-in. Just like other software would offer e.g. a list of templates or similar.

Of course we don't know automatically what grids are of interest.

Andreas

Am 20.03.20 um 09:51 schrieb Jürgen E. Fischer:
Hi Andreas,

On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 09:21:00 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
Alternatively, would it be possible to integrate an additional step/choice
in the standalone installer that would download grid-shift files of interest
for the user?
How do we tell which shift files are of interest?

I guess that one reason for it being one big blob is that nobody knows the
extent of interest for all the individual grids (or CRSes).

I don't know which grids you use, you probably don't know which I use - and
we're even on a close longitude. ;)

Picking from 245 grids is probably not desirable either.


Jürgen


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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Jürgen E. Fischer
In reply to this post by Jeremy Palmer-3
Hi Jeremy,

On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 19:26:03 +1100, Jeremy Palmer wrote:
> Why not ship with the same grids that come with proj-datumgrid (or what
> QGIS typically ships in MacOSX and Windows.

In PRØJ 7 the grid files were turned to tif and are not packaged individually
anymore, probably because proj can downloaded them individually on demand now
- but we apparently don't use that.


Jürgen

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Jürgen E. Fischer
In reply to this post by Andreas Neumann-4
Hi Andreas,

On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 09:54:50 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> Am 20.03.20 um 09:51 schrieb Jürgen E. Fischer:
> > Picking from 245 grids is probably not desirable either.

> I thought that we could present a list of available grids (e.g. from
> https://github.com/OSGeo/PROJ-data ) to the user where all grids are
> deactivated by default and the user could opt-in. Just like other software
> would offer e.g. a list of templates or similar.

That still means picking from 245 grids - but we could point them to
https://cdn.proj.org/ and just tell them where to put the grids they want from
the installer.


Jürgen

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Even Rouault-2
In reply to this post by Jeremy Palmer-3
On vendredi 20 mars 2020 19:26:03 CET Jeremy Palmer wrote:

> > On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 08:12:35 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> > > Isn't that potentially a quite large amount of data? Most QGIS users
> >
> > that I
> >
> > > know mainly work in one country or region and only need one gridshift
> >
> > file.
> >
> > > Of course there are exceptions.
>
> Why not ship with the same grids that come with proj-datumgrid

I'd suggest to reavaluate that. proj-datumgrid grew organically, without a
particular thinking of which grids were essential, and which were not. Maybe
looking at the countries where most QGIS users live could be a way of taking
an informed decision. I guess the UK grid could be relevant for example in a
base package.

Even

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Jeremy Palmer-3
In reply to this post by Jürgen E. Fischer
HI Jürgen,

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 7:55 PM Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Jeremy,
 
In PRØJ 7 the grid files were turned to tif and are not packaged individually
anymore, probably because proj can downloaded them individually on demand now
- but we apparently don't use that.

They have been converted to TIF, but I thought these new files were still the same logical separated grids as published by agencies? Can we just distribute a subset of what's in the new data package which is the same as proj-datumgrid?

Cheers
Jeremy

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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by Andreas Neumann-4
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 18:21, Andreas Neumann <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi, Jürgen,
>
> Thanks for explaining the situation. 500MB is definitely too large and
> it would be useless data for most users.
>
> Might it be an option to store grid-shift files alternatively also in
> the QGIS user directory - I mean the folder where the user stores his
> settings, plugins, expressions. I agree that many users wouldn't have
> access to the main install directory.

That's already possible, and it's how the "install grid" buttons work
(they copy to this folder)

> Alternatively, would it be possible to integrate an additional
> step/choice in the standalone installer that would download grid-shift
> files of interest for the user?

My issue is that 99% of modern GIS users (made up number, based on
personal experience alone) have no idea what a "grid shift file" is,
what it's used for, and the consequence of not having it. We'd have to
be very very careful in how we present any option like this, e.g.
don't mention "grid shift" at all, but instead something like
"localised support files".

Nyall


>
> Thanks,
>
> Andreas
>
> Am 20.03.20 um 09:09 schrieb Jürgen E. Fischer:
> > Hi Andreas,
> >
> > On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 08:12:35 +0100, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> >> Isn't that potentially a quite large amount of data? Most QGIS users that I
> >> know mainly work in one country or region and only need one gridshift file.
> >> Of course there are exceptions.
> > Yes. proj-dev-data is >500MB (also containing two extra huge grids with of 80
> > MB & 73 MB each; the latter for just one state in Germany).
> >
> > Putting it in the regular proj directory from within QGIS might also not be
> > possible, when a regular user runs QGIS.  And internet access to download is
> > also not a given.
> >
> > In OSGeo4W this isn't a problem.  Downloading from within the standalone
> > installer could be an option, but that kind of ruins the point of having a
> > standalone installer.
> >
> >
> > Jürgen
> >
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Re: Proj 7 auto grid download

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by Jürgen E. Fischer
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 18:55, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> On Fri, 20. Mar 2020 at 19:26:03 +1100, Jeremy Palmer wrote:
> > Why not ship with the same grids that come with proj-datumgrid (or what
> > QGIS typically ships in MacOSX and Windows.
>
> In PRØJ 7 the grid files were turned to tif and are not packaged individually
> anymore, probably because proj can downloaded them individually on demand now
> - but we apparently don't use that.

Not just QGIS. The auto-download behavior is an opt-in switch for
applications, it's not the default behavior.

I can't find any application which use the CDN by default -- searching
github for proj_context_set_enable_network only gets hits in proj
itself. And I'd really like consistent behavior here, so that users
who install QGIS through osgeo4w can get the same transformation
results regardless if they use QGIS application, GDAL command line, or
GRASS tools via processing... (which is why I keep coming back to the
"screw it, this is too complex to solve case-by-case, lets just
install them ALL for EVERYONE" option).

That said, users CAN still enable this for any application by setting
the environment variable PROJ_NETWORK. I'd be interested to hear
results if someone on a proj 7 build wants to test how this actually
impacts QGIS in practice.

Nyall
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