[QGIS-Developer] QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
11 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[QGIS-Developer] QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

William Kyngesburye
I'm slowly working on updating everything to build my QGIS 3.10 Mac package, and found a disparity between PROJ and SAGA.

I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for PROJ 6 support.

I must then build and include both PROJ 6 and PROJ.4 in the QGIS package.

But, looking at the Processing-SAGA algorithms, I see no mention of proj, or pj, SAGA modules.  So, maybe then I don't need PROJ.4 after all?  Is there any interdependency within SAGA that some other SAGA module needs to use the proj module?

There is no option to build SAGA without PROJ, but I could hack the makefiles to skip it.  Or I could build it with the old PROJ and just not include those modules in the QGIS package.

-----
William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
http://www.kyngchaos.com/

First Pogril: Why is life like sticking your head in a bucket filled with hyena offal?
Second Pogril: I don't know.  Why IS life like sticking your head in a bucket filled with hyena offal?
First Pogril: I don't know either.  Wretched, isn't it?

-HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy


_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Even Rouault-2
William,

> I must then build and include both PROJ 6 and PROJ.4 in the QGIS package.

Caution...

> There is no option to build SAGA without PROJ, but I could hack the
> makefiles to skip it.  Or I could build it with the old PROJ and just not
> include those modules in the QGIS package.

From https://packages.debian.org/sid/saga , I see that SAGA has a dependency
to both GDAL and PROJ. If your GDAL is a GDAL 3, it must be built against PROJ
6. If you build SAGA against GDAL 3 and PROJ 4 or 5, then SAGA will
effectively link against 2 different PROJ versions. This is a perfect recipee
for potential runtime crashes in SAGA depending on how lucky/unlucky you are
regarding the order into which libraries and symbols are loaded and resolved.

Even

--
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by William Kyngesburye
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 05:51, William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I'm slowly working on updating everything to build my QGIS 3.10 Mac package, and found a disparity between PROJ and SAGA.
>
> I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for PROJ 6 support.
>
> I must then build and include both PROJ 6 and PROJ.4 in the QGIS package.
>
> But, looking at the Processing-SAGA algorithms, I see no mention of proj, or pj, SAGA modules.  So, maybe then I don't need PROJ.4 after all?  Is there any interdependency within SAGA that some other SAGA module needs to use the proj module?
>
> There is no option to build SAGA without PROJ, but I could hack the makefiles to skip it.  Or I could build it with the old PROJ and just not include those modules in the QGIS package.

Ehh... the frustrating saga with SAGA continues...

I suggest we do a gross hack and whitelist SAGA 7.4. It'll be broken
in parts, but as I see it saga support in qgis is (and always has
been) hit-or-miss. Numerous devs have tried to fix this, even to the
extent of there being two 3rd party plugins which tried to expose
newer saga support (one by Alex Bruy, one by myself). No-one has
showed the slightest interest in these plugins or stepping up to
maintain them.

For QGIS 4 we need to revisit earlier discussions, and I'll be pushing
as hard as I possibly can for us to completely drop SAGA support in
master and shaft all this mess off to plugins to deal with.

Nyall



>
> -----
> William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
> http://www.kyngchaos.com/
>
> First Pogril: Why is life like sticking your head in a bucket filled with hyena offal?
> Second Pogril: I don't know.  Why IS life like sticking your head in a bucket filled with hyena offal?
> First Pogril: I don't know either.  Wretched, isn't it?
>
> -HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Sebastiaan Couwenberg
In reply to this post by William Kyngesburye
On 12/1/19 8:50 PM, William Kyngesburye wrote:
> I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for PROJ 6 support.

SAGA 7.3.0 is the new LTS, and supports PROJ 6.

You should upgrade to that.

Also note: https://plugins.qgis.org/plugins/processing_saga_nextgen/

Kind Regards,

Bas

--
 GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1
Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146  50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Nyall Dawson
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 14:38, Sebastiaan Couwenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/19 8:50 PM, William Kyngesburye wrote:
> > I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for PROJ 6 support.
>
> SAGA 7.3.0 is the new LTS, and supports PROJ 6.
>
> You should upgrade to that.
>
> Also note: https://plugins.qgis.org/plugins/processing_saga_nextgen/

I know, I made that plugin, in the hope that it would be adopted by
motivated community members who wanted to see a newer saga version
utilised. Spoiler: it didn't.

Nyall



>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Bas
>
> --
>  GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1
> Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146  50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Alexander Bruy
пн, 2 груд. 2019 о 06:43 Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> пише:
> I know, I made that plugin, in the hope that it would be adopted by
> motivated community members who wanted to see a newer saga version
> utilised. Spoiler: it didn't.

I'd say it is expected and completely predictable. Same happened with OTB.
When it broke our CI, QGIS devs were fixing it, not community members who
insisted on inclusion.

--
Alexander Bruy
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Régis Haubourg
In reply to this post by Nyall Dawson
Hi, side note, I missed the existence of this SAGA plugin.
Maybe I missed some communication somewhere, and if so, I'm not the only one.
So, It might be worth giving it another chance maybe.
Regards,
Régis

Le lun. 2 déc. 2019 à 05:43, Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 14:38, Sebastiaan Couwenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/19 8:50 PM, William Kyngesburye wrote:
> > I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for PROJ 6 support.
>
> SAGA 7.3.0 is the new LTS, and supports PROJ 6.
>
> You should upgrade to that.
>
> Also note: https://plugins.qgis.org/plugins/processing_saga_nextgen/

I know, I made that plugin, in the hope that it would be adopted by
motivated community members who wanted to see a newer saga version
utilised. Spoiler: it didn't.

Nyall



>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Bas
>
> --
>  GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1
> Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146  50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer

_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

pcav
Of course, a crowdfunding or a QGIS grant is always an option.
Another long standing idea from Victor is to include in QGIS all the
relevant code from SAGA; of course this option has its drawbacks too.
The fact is that a minority of users, especially power ones, need very
specific functions since now and then, the usual 10% functions for 90%
of users+90% of functions for 10% of users paradox.
Cheers.

Il 02/12/19 16:09, Régis Haubourg ha scritto:

> Hi, side note, I missed the existence of this SAGA plugin.
> Maybe I missed some communication somewhere, and if so, I'm not the only
> one.
> So, It might be worth giving it another chance maybe.
> Regards,
> Régis
>
> Le lun. 2 déc. 2019 à 05:43, Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> a écrit :
>
>     On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 14:38, Sebastiaan Couwenberg
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     >
>     > On 12/1/19 8:50 PM, William Kyngesburye wrote:
>     > > I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully
>     supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is
>     still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on
>     PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for
>     PROJ 6 support.
>     >
>     > SAGA 7.3.0 is the new LTS, and supports PROJ 6.
>     >
>     > You should upgrade to that.
>     >
>     > Also note: https://plugins.qgis.org/plugins/processing_saga_nextgen/
>
>     I know, I made that plugin, in the hope that it would be adopted by
>     motivated community members who wanted to see a newer saga version
>     utilised. Spoiler: it didn't.
>
>     Nyall
>
>
>
>     >
>     > Kind Regards,
>     >
>     > Bas
>     >
>     > --
>     >  GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1
>     > Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146  50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > QGIS-Developer mailing list
>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>     > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>     _______________________________________________
>     QGIS-Developer mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>     Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>

--
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
QGIS.ORG Chair:
http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Rainer Hurling
Not to forget, that SAGA GIS evolves very fast. There are several new,
modern algorithms from version to version in the codebase. Normally,
these new algorithms work as expected out of the box (within SAGA GIS).
If not, the small core team find a solution within hours, at least
within a few days.

I am voting for keeping the SAGA GIS LTS version, but find a way to
change from 2.3.x to 7.3.x version.

Saying this, I must also note, that I have no skills with C/C++ and can
not help directly. Apopogoies for this :(  Of course, I can help to test ...

Best wishes,
Rainer Hurling (maintainer of the FreeBSD ports of SAGA GIS and QGIS)



Am 02.12.19 um 16:42 schrieb Paolo Cavallini:

> Of course, a crowdfunding or a QGIS grant is always an option.
> Another long standing idea from Victor is to include in QGIS all the
> relevant code from SAGA; of course this option has its drawbacks too.
> The fact is that a minority of users, especially power ones, need very
> specific functions since now and then, the usual 10% functions for 90%
> of users+90% of functions for 10% of users paradox.
> Cheers.
>
> Il 02/12/19 16:09, Régis Haubourg ha scritto:
>> Hi, side note, I missed the existence of this SAGA plugin.
>> Maybe I missed some communication somewhere, and if so, I'm not the only
>> one.
>> So, It might be worth giving it another chance maybe.
>> Regards,
>> Régis
>>
>> Le lun. 2 déc. 2019 à 05:43, Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> a écrit :
>>
>>     On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 14:38, Sebastiaan Couwenberg
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     > On 12/1/19 8:50 PM, William Kyngesburye wrote:
>>     > > I want to have PROJ 6 (and GDAL 3) for QGIS (should be fully
>>     supported in QGIS 3.10.1), but found a problem with SAGA.  QGIS is
>>     still using SAGA 2.3 (LTS) for API stability.  SAGA 2.3 is stuck on
>>     PROJ.4.  It's only the latest SAGA, v7.4 that finally updated for
>>     PROJ 6 support.
>>     >
>>     > SAGA 7.3.0 is the new LTS, and supports PROJ 6.
>>     >
>>     > You should upgrade to that.
>>     >
>>     > Also note: https://plugins.qgis.org/plugins/processing_saga_nextgen/
>>
>>     I know, I made that plugin, in the hope that it would be adopted by
>>     motivated community members who wanted to see a newer saga version
>>     utilised. Spoiler: it didn't.
>>
>>     Nyall
>>
>>
>>
>>     >
>>     > Kind Regards,
>>     >
>>     > Bas
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     >  GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1
>>     > Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146  50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > QGIS-Developer mailing list
>>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>     > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     QGIS-Developer mailing list
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>     Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> QGIS-Developer mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>
>

_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Giovanni Manghi
In reply to this post by Sebastiaan Couwenberg
Hi,

> Not to forget, that SAGA GIS evolves very fast. There are several new,
> modern algorithms from version to version in the codebase. Normally,
> these new algorithms work as expected out of the box (within SAGA GIS).
> If not, the small core team find a solution within hours, at least
> within a few days.

yes of course, but this has proven to be very hard for us to keep this
pace within QGIS, especially when in SAGA fundamental modules like
io_gdal change parameters names without keeping retro-compability with
previous releases. Also modules change name frequently from one
release to another (as also their parameters). This is the main reason
we decided to stop trying support every latest release and so stick
with the LTR one.

Said that if the "official" way to support SAGA would be a plugin it
would be much easier to implement and distribute/update such changes.

cheers

-- G --
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: QGIS & PROJ 6 & SAGA

Alexander Bruy
вт, 3 груд. 2019 о 14:07 Giovanni Manghi <[hidden email]> пише:
> Said that if the "official" way to support SAGA would be a plugin it
> would be much easier to implement and distribute/update such changes.

If I recall correctly this was discussed a lot in the mailing lists
before 3.0 release
and most developers involved into Processing support was agains keeping SAGA
and adding any new providers while some community members were pushing hard
to keep them. Final decision at the Madeira meeting was to keep SAGA and include
OTB with one of the arguments that this way it will be easier for
community to maintain
them. Now we have SAGA in core and at least 2 plugins for SAGA and very little
(I'd even say zero) community involvement in any of them.

Do we really want to restart this discussion? I don't think that two
involved parties
have changed their mind. Also it is probably too early as no breaking
changes can
be made before 4.0 and even if we make a decision now it anyway very likely will
be revised again before release as it happened last time.

--
Alexander Bruy
_______________________________________________
QGIS-Developer mailing list
[hidden email]
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer