[QGIS-Developer] QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

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[QGIS-Developer] QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Richard Duivenvoorde
Hi,

As a vivid WMS user/debugger, I see that QGIS is firing 9 requests per 'view-extent' currently.

I'm aware of cache etc etc... but... especially when using temporal filters for example, do others agree with me that this is more or less useless?
I'm also aware that a lot of WMS are actually just WMS interfaces in front of a cached WMTS, but still.

- some (governmental) services nowadays are still free for fair use, but: firing 9 times the actual requests costs resources/energy/maybe money
- before the WMTS I ran WMS services sometimes with pretty heavy styling, so on higher zoomlevels you do NOT want your clients to fire 9 requests, and just effectively use 1 ...

So in short: should I try to add some kind of (hidden?) option to minimize the number of requests?

To test a wms of all municipalities of NL:

https://geodata.nationaalgeoregister.nl/bestuurlijkegrenzen/ows?SERVICE=WMS
(layer 'gemeenten', EPSG:28992)
And look in F12/debugging window the number of GetMap requests fired when zoomed in...

I copied/created polgyons of the requests, and (see screenie) indeed looking at the center 'tile', the 8 surrounding requests are also fired....

Currently looking into this.

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde


 

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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

jmckenna
Administrator
Hi Richard,

Yes I've noticed this also, I just never spent time to examine why.  For
example, using my own WMS service I zoomed in and QGIS fired 11 GetMap
requests to my server.  It's difficult to trigger though (I can't
reproduce with your NL service).  Bizarre.  But I have definitely seen
9+ GetMap requests for the same service/layer.

-jeff






--
Jeff McKenna
GatewayGeo: MapServer Consulting and Training Services
co-founder of FOSS4G
http://gatewaygeo.com/





On 2021-02-13 11:29 a.m., Richard Duivenvoorde wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As a vivid WMS user/debugger, I see that QGIS is firing 9 requests per 'view-extent' currently.
>
> I'm aware of cache etc etc... but... especially when using temporal filters for example, do others agree with me that this is more or less useless?
> I'm also aware that a lot of WMS are actually just WMS interfaces in front of a cached WMTS, but still.
>
> - some (governmental) services nowadays are still free for fair use, but: firing 9 times the actual requests costs resources/energy/maybe money
> - before the WMTS I ran WMS services sometimes with pretty heavy styling, so on higher zoomlevels you do NOT want your clients to fire 9 requests, and just effectively use 1 ...
>
> So in short: should I try to add some kind of (hidden?) option to minimize the number of requests?
>
> To test a wms of all municipalities of NL:
>
> https://geodata.nationaalgeoregister.nl/bestuurlijkegrenzen/ows?SERVICE=WMS
> (layer 'gemeenten', EPSG:28992)
> And look in F12/debugging window the number of GetMap requests fired when zoomed in...
>
> I copied/created polgyons of the requests, and (see screenie) indeed looking at the center 'tile', the 8 surrounding requests are also fired....
>
> Currently looking into this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Duivenvoorde
>
>
>  
>


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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

pathmapper
Hi,

here's a related thread (i.e. xyz tiles, but I guess it's also valid vor
wms):
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/34813

Some quotes:
"QGIS renders the surrounding areas in a background job to make
subsequent pan actions faster. Therefore it sends more tile requests
than necessary for the current map extent."

"Btw, we now have the code in place to fine-tune prefetching behavior
for all raster layers on a per-layer basis, for now I just blacklisted
osm tiles."

It sounds like the plan is to make the prefetching behavior configurable
via QGIS settings.

Cheers,
Bjoern

On 13.02.2021 19:45, Jeff McKenna wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Yes I've noticed this also, I just never spent time to examine why.
> For example, using my own WMS service I zoomed in and QGIS fired 11
> GetMap requests to my server.  It's difficult to trigger though (I
> can't reproduce with your NL service).  Bizarre.  But I have
> definitely seen 9+ GetMap requests for the same service/layer.
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff McKenna
> GatewayGeo: MapServer Consulting and Training Services
> co-founder of FOSS4G
> http://gatewaygeo.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2021-02-13 11:29 a.m., Richard Duivenvoorde wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As a vivid WMS user/debugger, I see that QGIS is firing 9 requests per
>> 'view-extent' currently.
>>
>> I'm aware of cache etc etc... but... especially when using temporal
>> filters for example, do others agree with me that this is more or less
>> useless?
>> I'm also aware that a lot of WMS are actually just WMS interfaces in
>> front of a cached WMTS, but still.
>>
>> - some (governmental) services nowadays are still free for fair use,
>> but: firing 9 times the actual requests costs resources/energy/maybe
>> money
>> - before the WMTS I ran WMS services sometimes with pretty heavy
>> styling, so on higher zoomlevels you do NOT want your clients to fire
>> 9 requests, and just effectively use 1 ...
>>
>> So in short: should I try to add some kind of (hidden?) option to
>> minimize the number of requests?
>>
>> To test a wms of all municipalities of NL:
>>
>> https://geodata.nationaalgeoregister.nl/bestuurlijkegrenzen/ows?SERVICE=WMS
>> (layer 'gemeenten', EPSG:28992)
>> And look in F12/debugging window the number of GetMap requests fired
>> when zoomed in...
>>
>> I copied/created polgyons of the requests, and (see screenie) indeed
>> looking at the center 'tile', the 8 surrounding requests are also
>> fired....
>>
>> Currently looking into this.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Richard Duivenvoorde
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Richard Duivenvoorde
On 2/13/21 8:01 PM, pathmapper wrote:
> here's a related thread (i.e. xyz tiles, but I guess it's also valid vor wms):
> https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/34813
>
> Some quotes:
> "QGIS renders the surrounding areas in a background job to make subsequent pan actions faster. Therefore it sends more tile requests than necessary for the current map extent."
>
> "Btw, we now have the code in place to fine-tune prefetching behavior for all raster layers on a per-layer basis, for now I just blacklisted osm tiles."
>
> It sounds like the plan is to make the prefetching behavior configurable via QGIS settings.

Mmm, thanks. Looking into the code it looks indeed like a WMS is in logic trying to behave like a WMSC, but... next request all is forgotten... That is my conclusion, not very much comments in the code in that area for others to try to understand the pretty complex logic (about WMS, WMTS, Temporal, WMSC etc...) :-(

Anybody really into this, who can shine some light on this?

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Richard Duivenvoorde
In reply to this post by jmckenna
On 2/13/21 7:45 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> Yes I've noticed this also, I just never spent time to examine why.  For example, using my own WMS service I zoomed in and QGIS fired 11 GetMap requests to my server.  It's difficult to trigger though (I can't reproduce with your NL service).  Bizarre.  But I have definitely seen 9+ GetMap requests for the same service/layer.

Sometimes it starts of with just one WMS request, and after that after a zoom-action all pan actions do fire requests heavily.

I was actually looking into this issue:
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/41504

Which starts of with TIME parameters, but after some non-200 responses 'loose' the TIME-parameter....

So that is why I started to try to understand this heavy hitting...

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde


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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Richard Duivenvoorde
In reply to this post by pathmapper
On 2/13/21 8:01 PM, pathmapper wrote:

> Hi,
>
> here's a related thread (i.e. xyz tiles, but I guess it's also valid vor wms):
> https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/34813
>
> Some quotes:
> "QGIS renders the surrounding areas in a background job to make subsequent pan actions faster. Therefore it sends more tile requests than necessary for the current map extent."
>
> "Btw, we now have the code in place to fine-tune prefetching behavior for all raster layers on a per-layer basis, for now I just blacklisted osm tiles."
>
> It sounds like the plan is to make the prefetching behavior configurable via QGIS settings.

See https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/41832 to prevent prefetching for true WMS's...

Now I like to have some input indeed making prefetching behaviour more configurable:

- where to put a checkbox/setting about prefetching tiles (global raster, or per wms service or just global, or a hidden setting)?
- what to make default (with or without prefetching...?)

My first idea:
- add a checkbox "Prefetch surrounding WMS(T) images" in the WMS/WMTS Connection dialog in the 'WMS/WMTS Options' section; default FALSE (unless see below)
- In General Options / Network / Cache Settings add a  tab or just a checkbox with "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (defaulting to FALSE, but if enabled the above mentioned checkbox will always be enabled too)
- also make this an option in the provider uri

Input?

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

jmckenna
Administrator
On 2021-02-25 3:24 p.m., Richard Duivenvoorde wrote:

> On 2/13/21 8:01 PM, pathmapper wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> here's a related thread (i.e. xyz tiles, but I guess it's also valid vor wms):
>> https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/34813
>>
>> Some quotes:
>> "QGIS renders the surrounding areas in a background job to make subsequent pan actions faster. Therefore it sends more tile requests than necessary for the current map extent."
>>
>> "Btw, we now have the code in place to fine-tune prefetching behavior for all raster layers on a per-layer basis, for now I just blacklisted osm tiles."
>>
>> It sounds like the plan is to make the prefetching behavior configurable via QGIS settings.
>
> See https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/41832 to prevent prefetching for true WMS's...
>
> Now I like to have some input indeed making prefetching behaviour more configurable:
>
> - where to put a checkbox/setting about prefetching tiles (global raster, or per wms service or just global, or a hidden setting)?
> - what to make default (with or without prefetching...?)
>
> My first idea:
> - add a checkbox "Prefetch surrounding WMS(T) images" in the WMS/WMTS Connection dialog in the 'WMS/WMTS Options' section; default FALSE (unless see below)
> - In General Options / Network / Cache Settings add a  tab or just a checkbox with "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (defaulting to FALSE, but if enabled the above mentioned checkbox will always be enabled too)
> - also make this an option in the provider uri

I really like that Richard, since I am always in the
Settings/Options/CacheSettings to clear my cache anyway (as I am
constantly changing already-parsed WMS services), having a checkbox in
the "Content" tab of "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (default to false)
makes sense.

I also like having a checkbox in the WMS/WMTS dialog, in the 'Options'
section near bottom, defaulting to false.

(so I'm in total agreement to both your proposals, ha)

Big thanks from the east coast of Canada!

-jeff


--
Jeff McKenna
GatewayGeo: MapServer Consulting and Training Services
co-founder of FOSS4G
http://gatewaygeo.com/






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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by Richard Duivenvoorde
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 05:25, Richard Duivenvoorde <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/13/21 8:01 PM, pathmapper wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > here's a related thread (i.e. xyz tiles, but I guess it's also valid vor wms):
> > https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/34813
> >
> > Some quotes:
> > "QGIS renders the surrounding areas in a background job to make subsequent pan actions faster. Therefore it sends more tile requests than necessary for the current map extent."
> >
> > "Btw, we now have the code in place to fine-tune prefetching behavior for all raster layers on a per-layer basis, for now I just blacklisted osm tiles."
> >
> > It sounds like the plan is to make the prefetching behavior configurable via QGIS settings.
>
> See https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/41832 to prevent prefetching for true WMS's...
>
> Now I like to have some input indeed making prefetching behaviour more configurable:
>
> - where to put a checkbox/setting about prefetching tiles (global raster, or per wms service or just global, or a hidden setting)?
> - what to make default (with or without prefetching...?)
>
> My first idea:
> - add a checkbox "Prefetch surrounding WMS(T) images" in the WMS/WMTS Connection dialog in the 'WMS/WMTS Options' section; default FALSE (unless see below)
> - In General Options / Network / Cache Settings add a  tab or just a checkbox with "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (defaulting to FALSE, but if enabled the above mentioned checkbox will always be enabled too)
> - also make this an option in the provider uri


Question: Do we REALLY need an option for this? I think the behavior
after your recent PR is correct, in that we ALWAYS skip the prefetch
for WMS. I don't think there's a strong enough use case that someone
would want to enable this to warrant a new option (and the
corresponding UI complexity and code maintainence burden that comes
with a configurable option).

Nyall
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Nyall Dawson
In reply to this post by jmckenna
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 05:48, Jeff McKenna
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>

> I really like that Richard, since I am always in the
> Settings/Options/CacheSettings to clear my cache anyway (as I am
> constantly changing already-parsed WMS services), having a checkbox in
> the "Content" tab of "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (default to false)
> makes sense.


Not sure if you're aware of this, but in 3.18 if you open the network
logger panel via F12 there's a new option "disable cache" which will
cause ALL requests to skip existing cached replies. It's intended to
help with the exact use case you describe!

Nyall


>
> I also like having a checkbox in the WMS/WMTS dialog, in the 'Options'
> section near bottom, defaulting to false.
>
> (so I'm in total agreement to both your proposals, ha)
>
> Big thanks from the east coast of Canada!
>
> -jeff
>
>
> --
> Jeff McKenna
> GatewayGeo: MapServer Consulting and Training Services
> co-founder of FOSS4G
> http://gatewaygeo.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Richard Duivenvoorde
On 2/25/21 11:49 PM, Nyall Dawson wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 05:48, Jeff McKenna
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I really like that Richard, since I am always in the
>> Settings/Options/CacheSettings to clear my cache anyway (as I am
>> constantly changing already-parsed WMS services), having a checkbox in
>> the "Content" tab of "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (default to false)
>> makes sense.
>
> Not sure if you're aware of this, but in 3.18 if you open the network
> logger panel via F12 there's a new option "disable cache" which will
> cause ALL requests to skip existing cached replies. It's intended to
> help with the exact use case you describe!

Thanks Nyall,

indeed I also want to make sure (to Jeff) that the 'caching' and 'prefetching' thing is related but different beasts.
If you want to disable cache at all: 'disable cache', the PR is was speaking about was about prefetching surrounding mapcanvas images for WMS's.

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

Richard Duivenvoorde
In reply to this post by Nyall Dawson
On 2/25/21 11:48 PM, Nyall Dawson wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 05:25, Richard Duivenvoorde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Now I like to have some input indeed making prefetching behaviour more configurable:
>>
>> - where to put a checkbox/setting about prefetching tiles (global raster, or per wms service or just global, or a hidden setting)?
>> - what to make default (with or without prefetching...?)
>>
>> My first idea:
>> - add a checkbox "Prefetch surrounding WMS(T) images" in the WMS/WMTS Connection dialog in the 'WMS/WMTS Options' section; default FALSE (unless see below)
>> - In General Options / Network / Cache Settings add a  tab or just a checkbox with "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (defaulting to FALSE, but if enabled the above mentioned checkbox will always be enabled too)
>> - also make this an option in the provider uri
>
> Question: Do we REALLY need an option for this? I think the behavior
> after your recent PR is correct, in that we ALWAYS skip the prefetch
> for WMS. I don't think there's a strong enough use case that someone
> would want to enable this to warrant a new option (and the
> corresponding UI complexity and code maintainence burden that comes
> with a configurable option).

Hi Nyall,

do you mean only WMS or do you mean all (tiled) services available in the qgswmsprovider.cpp?

So actually disable Capability::Prefetch for the wmsprovider?
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/blob/master/src/providers/wms/qgswmsprovider.cpp#L2018

Or were you only agreeing with WMS?

Because the real world cases are the ones like OpenStreetMap (who is already 'fixed' by Ale), but also in The Netherland where we have/had 'free' WMST services for Aerials and Topo (and several other services), but because of the super heavy load of these free services, they start to go away from the 'free' and want you to pay for a number of requests.
Besides this: (tile) resources do not come for free, they cost bandwidth/energy/computer power etc etc

As said, I haven't checked WMTS precisely (I did for WMS) but try:
https://geodata.nationaalgeoregister.nl/wmts?VERSION=1.0.0&request=GetCapabilities
and open the layer 'opentopo'.

For my mapcanvas of 1000x1000 pixels (theoretically 4x4=16 tiles of 256x256pixels, but say 6x6=36).
If I zoom in I fire a >176 requests.
I would be Ok to have no prefetching at all for services, just to save the earth a little :-)

I agree that 'polluting' the interface with options is a good argument. An option then would be to make it a hidden/advanced setting, which I can disable (or others have to enable... how user/environmental friendly do we want to be).

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !?

jmckenna
Administrator
In reply to this post by Richard Duivenvoorde
On 2021-02-26 4:53 a.m., Richard Duivenvoorde wrote:

> On 2/25/21 11:49 PM, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 05:48, Jeff McKenna
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I really like that Richard, since I am always in the
>>> Settings/Options/CacheSettings to clear my cache anyway (as I am
>>> constantly changing already-parsed WMS services), having a checkbox in
>>> the "Content" tab of "Default prefetch WMS(T) images" (default to false)
>>> makes sense.
>>
>> Not sure if you're aware of this, but in 3.18 if you open the network
>> logger panel via F12 there's a new option "disable cache" which will
>> cause ALL requests to skip existing cached replies. It's intended to
>> help with the exact use case you describe!
>
> Thanks Nyall,
>
> indeed I also want to make sure (to Jeff) that the 'caching' and 'prefetching' thing is related but different beasts.
> If you want to disable cache at all: 'disable cache', the PR is was speaking about was about prefetching surrounding mapcanvas images for WMS's.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Duivenvoorde
>

Hi Richard,

I am aware that caching and prefetching are very different, I was just
giving an example of accessing the settings.  Sorry to mention that,
which caused so many responses.  Carry on :)

/me a humbled user

-jeff



--
Jeff McKenna
GatewayGeo: MapServer Consulting and Training Services
co-founder of FOSS4G
http://gatewaygeo.com/
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Re: QGIS WMS provider firing too many requests !? Now: WMTS

Richard Duivenvoorde
In reply to this post by Richard Duivenvoorde
On 2/26/21 10:35 AM, Richard Duivenvoorde wrote:
> As said, I haven't checked WMTS precisely (I did for WMS) but try:
> https://geodata.nationaalgeoregister.nl/wmts?VERSION=1.0.0&request=GetCapabilities
> and open the layer 'opentopo'.
>
> For my mapcanvas of 1000x1000 pixels (theoretically 4x4=16 tiles of 256x256pixels, but say 6x6=36).
> If I zoom in I fire a >176 requests.
> I would be Ok to have no prefetching at all for services, just to save the earth a little :-)
>
> I agree that 'polluting' the interface with options is a good argument. An option then would be to make it a hidden/advanced setting, which I can disable (or others have to enable... how user/environmental friendly do we want to be).

I decided that it was not wise to defaulting to requesting that much tiles, not even for WMTS, and created an Pull Request for it:

https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/41953

I hope I do not offend people with this.
Alternative would be that we keep the prefetching defaulting to true, and make it possible to set it to false.

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde


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