How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

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How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Anita Graser
Hi,

I just unapproved the Hello world plugin on the basis of that it is not  
useful for the general user base.
It seems like the plugin was created as a test case for the plugin  
management system. I see why that is useful but I also think we should  
avoid having such things show up in the production version.

At least I would like to encourage the use of the "experimental" flag for  
all plugins which are of no direct use to QGIS users but which were  
created by developers for developers or for testing purposes.

What do you think?

Best wishes,
Anita
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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Tim Sutton-4

Hi

Sent from my mobile
On 29 Dec 2013 5:21 PM, "Anita Graser" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I just unapproved the Hello world plugin on the basis of that it is not useful for the general user base.
> It seems like the plugin was created as a test case for the plugin management system. I see why that is useful but I also think we should avoid having such things show up in the production version.
>
> At least I would like to encourage the use of the "experimental" flag for all plugins which are of no direct use to QGIS users but which were created by developers for developers or for testing purposes.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best wishes,
> Anita

+1 yeah that sounds good to me too!.

Regards Tim

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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

pcav
+1

Tim Sutton <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

Hi

Sent from my mobile
On 29 Dec 2013 5:21 PM, "Anita Graser" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I just unapproved the Hello world plugin on the basis of that it is not useful for the general user base.
> It seems like the plugin was created as a test case for the plugin management system. I see why that is useful but I also think we should avoid having such things show up in the production version.
>
> At least I would like to encourage the use of the "experimental" flag for all plugins which are of no direct use to QGIS users but which were created by developers for developers or for testing purposes.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best wishes,
> Anita

+1 yeah that sounds good to me too!.

Regards Tim

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> [hidden email]
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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

mmekuria
In reply to this post by Anita Graser
Anita: I also agree it should be kept as experimental or test case.
I have another question on the PgRouting plugin. I get an error message while starting QGIS saying that the python version is wrong. Is it written for Python 2.5 or 2.7?

But I am not a voting member, so do not add my response about the plugin.

Maaza

Maaza Christos, PhD
www.Axumcorp.com
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pgRouting Python version - was Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Anita Graser
Hi Maaza,

Am 30.12.2013, 01:52 Uhr, schrieb mmekuria <[hidden email]>:
> I have another question on the PgRouting plugin. I get an error message
> while starting QGIS saying that the python version is wrong. Is it  
> written for Python 2.5 or 2.7?

I've only tested using 2.7. It's well possible that it does not work with  
2.5.

Best wishes,
Anita
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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Tim Sutton-4
In reply to this post by mmekuria
Hi


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 1:52 AM, mmekuria <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anita: I also agree it should be kept as experimental or test case.
I have another question on the PgRouting plugin. I get an error message
while starting QGIS saying that the python version is wrong. Is it written
for Python 2.5 or 2.7?

But I am not a voting member, so do not add my response about the plugin.


For general questions (i.e. anything that is not a PSC vote), anyone can vote / offer their opinion - the only criteria is that you need to be interested enough to offer one.

Thanks!

Tim

 
Maaza





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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Alessandro Pasotti-2
In reply to this post by Anita Graser
2013/12/29 Anita Graser <[hidden email]>
Hi,

I just unapproved the Hello world plugin on the basis of that it is not useful for the general user base.
It seems like the plugin was created as a test case for the plugin management system. I see why that is useful but I also think we should avoid having such things show up in the production version.

At least I would like to encourage the use of the "experimental" flag for all plugins which are of no direct use to QGIS users but which were created by developers for developers or for testing purposes.

What do you think?


Generally speaking, I agree.

But in that particular case (HelloWorld), I feel that people are using it as a template to explore/start the development of their plugins. It was downloaded more than 4000 times and people did warn me in the past when it was broken/uncompatible with newer QGIS version. In other words, even if it does just nothing (it's a test plugin) I'm sure it has been useful to other users.

No problem for me to left it unpublished, I will republish it if I need it for testing but next time, please, be polite and ask the author *before* unpublishing.

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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Anita Graser
Hi Alessandro,

Thanks for chiming in.

Am 30.12.2013, 09:44 Uhr, schrieb Alessandro Pasotti <[hidden email]>:
> But in that particular case (HelloWorld), I feel that people are using it
> as a template to explore/start the development of their plugins. It was
> downloaded more than 4000 times and people did warn me in the past when  
> it was broken/uncompatible with newer QGIS version. In other words, even  
> if it does just nothing (it's a test plugin) I'm sure it has been useful  
> to other users.

I'm sure the plugin is useful for plugin developers. For users though,  
it's just confusing to have a plugin offered which doesn't do anything.

> No problem for me to left it unpublished, I will republish it if I need  
> it
> for testing but next time, please, be polite and ask the author *before*
> unpublishing.

Sorry, I didn't think it was a big deal since it's not a silent procedure,  
there are notifications, and reapproving it just one click. I completely  
agree that plugins which users might depend on should not be unpublished  
without notification, except if something is seriously wrong. As I already  
mentioned, I think it's enough if Hello world is marked experimental  
anyway, so I reapproved it.

Best wishes,
Anita



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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Alessandro Pasotti-2
2013/12/30 Anita Graser <[hidden email]>
Hi Alessandro,

Thanks for chiming in.

Am 30.12.2013, 09:44 Uhr, schrieb Alessandro Pasotti <[hidden email]>:

But in that particular case (HelloWorld), I feel that people are using it
as a template to explore/start the development of their plugins. It was
downloaded more than 4000 times and people did warn me in the past when it was broken/uncompatible with newer QGIS version. In other words, even if it does just nothing (it's a test plugin) I'm sure it has been useful to other users.

I'm sure the plugin is useful for plugin developers. For users though, it's just confusing to have a plugin offered which doesn't do anything.


Hi Anita,

well, the plugin in fact does something even if not very useful: it opens a small window with a button.

Did you have any real feedback from users being confused from the HelloWorld plugin? After all, it clearly advertises itself as an example do-nothing plugin.

Can you explain me why do you put plugin developers in a different category than users? I tend to see plugin authors as (power) users.
 If I were a new QGIS user, I would like to have starting point to develop plugins, of course we have the coockbook and the builder plus plenty of blog articles, but as a programmer, what I would search is exactly that: the simplest possible plugin to start tampering with.

But I definitely agree that HelloWorld should not have a dual purpose (testing the plugin repository and provide a barebone example for wannabe plugin authors), so here's my proposal: unpublish HelloWorld and create a new Example plugin with the purpose of providing a simple starting point for new plugin authors.


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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Anita Graser
Hi Alessandro,

Am 30.12.2013, 13:54 Uhr, schrieb Alessandro Pasotti <[hidden email]>:
> Did you have any real feedback from users being confused from the
> HelloWorld plugin? After all, it clearly advertises itself as an example
> do-nothing plugin.

There is feedback from at least one user who think it should not be on the  
list of "official" plugins:
https://twitter.com/dig_geo_com/statuses/417293802387152896

I can understand that it does not leave the most professional impression  
if users find "weird testing stuff" in the "official" plugin list. (Note  
that I'm speaking from the perspective of users without open  
source/programming background.)

> Can you explain me why do you put plugin developers in a different  
> category
> than users? I tend to see plugin authors as (power) users.

Many GIS users are not programmers. They have QGIS installed by their IT  
department and might or might not be able to install additional plugins.  
They certainly won't touch programming with a ten-foot pole.
I think it's a valid distinction to make and the first impression should  
not alienate these more casual users.

>  If I were a new QGIS user, I would like to have starting point to  
> develop
> plugins, of course we have the coockbook and the builder plus plenty of
> blog articles, but as a programmer, what I would search is exactly that:
> the simplest possible plugin to start tampering with.

I totally agree with your statement from the perspective of someone who  
knows at least some programming. But not everyone is in this position.  
Many users come to QGIS without feeling the need to develop plugins. Too  
often all they want to do is visualize some data, maybe have some  
background map from OpenLayers plugin.

> But I definitely agree that HelloWorld should not have a dual purpose
> (testing the plugin repository and provide a barebone example for wannabe
> plugin authors), so here's my proposal: unpublish HelloWorld and create a
> new Example plugin with the purpose of providing a simple starting point
> for new plugin authors.

Personally, that doesn't bother me. I'm fine however you decide.

Best wishes,
Anita


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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Jonathan Moules-2
+1 to Anita's post. The vast majority of GIS users aren't programmers in my experience (which is my masters and my current employment with 100+ people who use GIS in some form). Simpler is almost always better.

It may not seem that way from mailing lists, but these are a self-selecting group of the more technically-proactive users (dev lists even more so).
Cheers,
Jonathan


On 30 December 2013 13:32, Anita Graser <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Alessandro,

Am 30.12.2013, 13:54 Uhr, schrieb Alessandro Pasotti <[hidden email]>:
Did you have any real feedback from users being confused from the
HelloWorld plugin? After all, it clearly advertises itself as an example
do-nothing plugin.

There is feedback from at least one user who think it should not be on the list of "official" plugins:
https://twitter.com/dig_geo_com/statuses/417293802387152896

I can understand that it does not leave the most professional impression if users find "weird testing stuff" in the "official" plugin list. (Note that I'm speaking from the perspective of users without open source/programming background.)

Can you explain me why do you put plugin developers in a different category
than users? I tend to see plugin authors as (power) users.

Many GIS users are not programmers. They have QGIS installed by their IT department and might or might not be able to install additional plugins. They certainly won't touch programming with a ten-foot pole.
I think it's a valid distinction to make and the first impression should not alienate these more casual users.

 If I were a new QGIS user, I would like to have starting point to develop
plugins, of course we have the coockbook and the builder plus plenty of
blog articles, but as a programmer, what I would search is exactly that:
the simplest possible plugin to start tampering with.

I totally agree with your statement from the perspective of someone who knows at least some programming. But not everyone is in this position. Many users come to QGIS without feeling the need to develop plugins. Too often all they want to do is visualize some data, maybe have some background map from OpenLayers plugin.

But I definitely agree that HelloWorld should not have a dual purpose
(testing the plugin repository and provide a barebone example for wannabe
plugin authors), so here's my proposal: unpublish HelloWorld and create a
new Example plugin with the purpose of providing a simple starting point
for new plugin authors.

Personally, that doesn't bother me. I'm fine however you decide.

Best wishes,
Anita


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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Bob and Deb

Maybe what is needed is a checkbox for programmer related plugins such as Plugin Builder, Plugin Reloader, ScriptRunner and HelloWorld?  One another idea is to integrate HelloWorld into Plugin Builder?

On Dec 30, 2013 5:44 AM, "Jonathan Moules" <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 to Anita's post. The vast majority of GIS users aren't programmers in my experience (which is my masters and my current employment with 100+ people who use GIS in some form). Simpler is almost always better.

It may not seem that way from mailing lists, but these are a self-selecting group of the more technically-proactive users (dev lists even more so).
Cheers,
Jonathan


On 30 December 2013 13:32, Anita Graser <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Alessandro,

Am 30.12.2013, 13:54 Uhr, schrieb Alessandro Pasotti <[hidden email]>:
Did you have any real feedback from users being confused from the
HelloWorld plugin? After all, it clearly advertises itself as an example
do-nothing plugin.

There is feedback from at least one user who think it should not be on the list of "official" plugins:
https://twitter.com/dig_geo_com/statuses/417293802387152896

I can understand that it does not leave the most professional impression if users find "weird testing stuff" in the "official" plugin list. (Note that I'm speaking from the perspective of users without open source/programming background.)

Can you explain me why do you put plugin developers in a different category
than users? I tend to see plugin authors as (power) users.

Many GIS users are not programmers. They have QGIS installed by their IT department and might or might not be able to install additional plugins. They certainly won't touch programming with a ten-foot pole.
I think it's a valid distinction to make and the first impression should not alienate these more casual users.

 If I were a new QGIS user, I would like to have starting point to develop
plugins, of course we have the coockbook and the builder plus plenty of
blog articles, but as a programmer, what I would search is exactly that:
the simplest possible plugin to start tampering with.

I totally agree with your statement from the perspective of someone who knows at least some programming. But not everyone is in this position. Many users come to QGIS without feeling the need to develop plugins. Too often all they want to do is visualize some data, maybe have some background map from OpenLayers plugin.

But I definitely agree that HelloWorld should not have a dual purpose
(testing the plugin repository and provide a barebone example for wannabe
plugin authors), so here's my proposal: unpublish HelloWorld and create a
new Example plugin with the purpose of providing a simple starting point
for new plugin authors.

Personally, that doesn't bother me. I'm fine however you decide.

Best wishes,
Anita


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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Alessandro Pasotti-2
2013/12/31 Bob and Deb <[hidden email]>

Maybe what is needed is a checkbox for programmer related plugins such as Plugin Builder, Plugin Reloader, ScriptRunner and HelloWorld?  One another idea is to integrate HelloWorld into Plugin Builder?




Hi,

yes, this is a solution, I feel that with over 6000 downloads it is probably useful for somebody to study how a minimal plugin does work.

But HelloWorld is also used as a test plugin for the plugin repository: 
 
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS-Django/tree/master/qgis-app/plugins/tests/HelloWorld

I collected a lot of HelloWorld versions that I use to test version conflicts, metadata parsing, UTF8 support and a lot of other errors that appeared in the past.

But I'm fine to leave it unpublished, I can re-publish it when testing.


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Re: How to deal with plugins which are not useful for users (e.g. Hello world)

Richard Duivenvoorde
On 31-12-13 08:44, Alessandro Pasotti wrote:

> 2013/12/31 Bob and Deb <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Maybe what is needed is a checkbox for programmer related plugins
>     such as Plugin Builder, Plugin Reloader, ScriptRunner and
>     HelloWorld?  One another idea is to integrate HelloWorld into Plugin
>     Builder?
>
> yes, this is a solution, I feel that with over 6000 downloads it is
> probably useful for somebody to study how a minimal plugin does work.
>
> But HelloWorld is also used as a test plugin for the plugin repository:
>  
> https://github.com/qgis/QGIS-Django/tree/master/qgis-app/plugins/tests/HelloWorld
>
> I collected a lot of HelloWorld versions that I use to test version
> conflicts, metadata parsing, UTF8 support and a lot of other errors that
> appeared in the past.
>
> But I'm fine to leave it unpublished, I can re-publish it when testing.

I second Alessandro that HelloWorld plugin has it's place, next to
Plugin Builder.

While HelloWorld is a really minimal plugin (as minimal as possible),
really usefull to make your first plugin. The Plugin Builder is already
pretty complex for a newby (because working with Makefile, translation,
documentation etc etc).

Both have there merits I think. As long as it is clear from the
description that HelloWorld is a test/dev plugin without real purpose, I
think it should be available to all.

By the way, Alessandro the plugin isn't unpublished currently.

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde



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