[GRASS5] GRASS GUI

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[GRASS5] GRASS GUI

Christian Wygoda
Hi everyone,

Looks like the talk on the right GUI for GRASS is getting a little
warmer... While QGIS is a very good GIS application supporting GRASS I
think that what Michael, Martin and myself are exchanging thoughts about
now is where GRASS's *own* display abilities are headed.

As GRASS moves to version 7, it is only natural that the display module
of GRASS is part of that process. In my opinion the d.* modules and
especially the interface to them do not reflect current GUI abilities.

So let's keep pondering where me might head with that. If we in the end
start work on our own GUI for GRASS is not yet said though some might
think that this is neccessary (that includes me).

Crischan

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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI

William Kyngesburye
I think the GUI toolkit should run *natively* cross-platform.

GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I  
saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.  
I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well  
developed native port.

Tcl/Tk: X11.  There are native builds of this on Mac and Windows.  
But, when I tried to use that on Mac OS X I ran into conflicts  
between X11 stuff and Mac OS X.  GRASS would have to be completely  
divorced from X11.

Qt: native from the ground up.  I just started playing with qgis.  
 From the binaries, it's a Mac application (or Windows, or X11),  
though the GUI widgets are a lot like Windows.  I'm trying a build  
from source (so I can update GDAL in it) and maybe there are some  
settings to use some more native versions of things (like the open/
save dialogs).


As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to  
abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use  
whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.  It might even  
then be possible to plug binaries of the GRASS GUI library into a  
GRASS binary to switch between GUIs.  Maybe start with Qt and add  
others later.  Just a thought.


On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:33 PM, Sajith VK wrote:

>
> Tool kit(TK/GTK/QT)
> -----------------------------
> Custom application development is very important in
> GIS. Hence selection of toolkit decides the way in which
> we can develop custom applications based on GRASS. Now each
> programmer has his own choice for toolkit. I like Gnome(and uses Gtk),
> and similarly someone else may like KDE(and use QT).
> So first a generic outline need to be developed. Later
> it should be implemented in both Qt and Gtk(atleast). So we
> can have a base application(say grass) and a set of GUI's
> (ggrass,kgrass,wxgrass etc). Initially it can be implemented
> in one toolkit and later extend to all.
>

-----
William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
http://www.kyngchaos.com/

"History is an illusion caused by the passage of time, and time is an  
illusion caused by the passage of history."

- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI

Joel Peter William Pitt-2
Regarding widget toolkits:

I think wxWindows (wxwindows.org) is the way to go. Then it can by built
natively for OSX, MS windows, GTK, etc.
I've always been cautious about Qt because of licensing issues on MS
windows, but I hear that Qt4 will resolve this.

Regarding comments on interface: One thing that I would love to see is a
specific GRASS shell, so when I'm typing in map parameters to a command
I can use autocompletion. In the same manner that bash allows you to
complete directories and filenames with tab, or shows you a list of
possible alternatives if more than one completion exists.

The only way I use d.m right now is to organise the order of displaying
of maps. Is there any command-line way to get the list of commands to
reproduce the current display?

Joel

William Kyngesburye wrote:

> I think the GUI toolkit should run *natively* cross-platform.
>
> GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I  
> saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.  
> I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well  
> developed native port.
>
> Tcl/Tk: X11.  There are native builds of this on Mac and Windows.  
> But, when I tried to use that on Mac OS X I ran into conflicts  
> between X11 stuff and Mac OS X.  GRASS would have to be completely  
> divorced from X11.
>
> Qt: native from the ground up.  I just started playing with qgis.  
> From the binaries, it's a Mac application (or Windows, or X11),  
> though the GUI widgets are a lot like Windows.  I'm trying a build  
> from source (so I can update GDAL in it) and maybe there are some  
> settings to use some more native versions of things (like the open/
> save dialogs).
>
>
> As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to  
> abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use  
> whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.  It might even  
> then be possible to plug binaries of the GRASS GUI library into a  
> GRASS binary to switch between GUIs.  Maybe start with Qt and add  
> others later.  Just a thought.



--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Joel Pitt, Room B534
Bio-Protection & Ecology Division
PO Box 84
Lincoln University 8150
New Zealand


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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI

Wolf Bergenheim
On 11/15/2005 11:27 PM, Joel Peter William Pitt wrote:

> Regarding comments on interface: One thing that I would love to see is a
> specific GRASS shell, so when I'm typing in map parameters to a command
> I can use autocompletion. In the same manner that bash allows you to
> complete directories and filenames with tab, or shows you a list of
> possible alternatives if more than one completion exists.

The cool thing about using your own shell is that you have the same
aliases etc. And most modern shells support autocompletion
configuration. I know bash and tcsh atleas does it. On windows, if the
shell is cmd, then defenately I think that a grass shell would be
better. If we are going to develop a grass shell, then I'm defenately
interested in doing it (:

Check out http://www.sorokine.info/grass-complete/ for bash and tcsh
completion. I haven't tried it yet, but I suppose it will work (;

>
> The only way I use d.m right now is to organise the order of displaying
> of maps. Is there any command-line way to get the list of commands to
> reproduce the current display?
>

Mee too. I'd also like to know this (:

--Wolf

--

      |Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
(o< --|Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
//\   |All the king's horses and all the king's men
V_/_  |Couldn't put Humpty together again.

Wolf Bergenheim

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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI

HamishB
In reply to this post by William Kyngesburye
> GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I  
> saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.  
> I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well  
> developed native port.

gtk for Windows is distributed as a dll installer, e.g. the WinGIMP
download page. GIMP on the Mac runs under X11, but in practice you
double click the gimp icon and you get the gimp program. It isn't really
a hurdle.


[...]
> As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to  
> abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use  
> whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.

quick prototyping:

all modules are can be run with "--interface-description" to give XML of
all the options etc.  Loop through all the module names and capture all
the module interface commands to a file, and go from there.

The PNG driver can create PPM output which you can use to fill windows.



Hamish

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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI - platforms

Michael Barton
In reply to this post by William Kyngesburye
Running 'natively'--or as natively as possible--will make it MUCH easier for
more people to who want to use GRASS to do so. It will also be easier to
learn more of the complexities of GIS and spatial analysis if they can
install it easily and simply run it easily.

TclTk is somewhat easy to work with because it doesn't have to be compiled.
HOWEVER, I now have 3 versions of TclTk on my Mac--the one that comes from
Apple (that GRASS does not use), the X11 version that I prefer, and the aqua
version that Lorenzo Moretti has used to give GRASS an optionally more
Mac-like appearance. Windows users need 2 versions of TclTk because the
version that comes with Cygwin doesn't work with GRASS. (Oh yeah and they
need Cygwin too). Some Linux users need version 8.3 in addition to the
version 8.4 that comes with their system. This is a mess. If we were to go
with TclTk, this would have to be cleaned up. But I don't know if it's
possible.

I also have heard that QT is making an open source version available for
Windows, but don't know the status of that. This is a pretty critical issue,
but perhaps solved already.

As someone else mentioned, GIMP works pretty transparently on my Mac, even
though it runs under X11. So does Inkscape (also GTK I think). Apple gives
away a Mac-specific version of X11, so this is not a problem AFAICT. I've
seen GIMP run on Windows XP and it appears to run natively (ie., no need for
Cygwin or x11 emulation). GTK seems to be widely standard on most Linux
systems too.

Someone also mentioned wxwindows as a platform candidate. I haven't heard of
this. Has anyone else?

Michael
__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution and Social Change
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ 85287-2402

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton



> From: William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:43:08 -0600
> To: <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI
>
> I think the GUI toolkit should run *natively* cross-platform.
>
> GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I
> saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.
> I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well
> developed native port.
>
> Tcl/Tk: X11.  There are native builds of this on Mac and Windows.
> But, when I tried to use that on Mac OS X I ran into conflicts
> between X11 stuff and Mac OS X.  GRASS would have to be completely
> divorced from X11.
>
> Qt: native from the ground up.  I just started playing with qgis.
>  From the binaries, it's a Mac application (or Windows, or X11),
> though the GUI widgets are a lot like Windows.  I'm trying a build
> from source (so I can update GDAL in it) and maybe there are some
> settings to use some more native versions of things (like the open/
> save dialogs).
>
>
> As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to
> abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use
> whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.  It might even
> then be possible to plug binaries of the GRASS GUI library into a
> GRASS binary to switch between GUIs.  Maybe start with Qt and add
> others later.  Just a thought.
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:33 PM, Sajith VK wrote:
>
>>
>> Tool kit(TK/GTK/QT)
>> -----------------------------
>> Custom application development is very important in
>> GIS. Hence selection of toolkit decides the way in which
>> we can develop custom applications based on GRASS. Now each
>> programmer has his own choice for toolkit. I like Gnome(and uses Gtk),
>> and similarly someone else may like KDE(and use QT).
>> So first a generic outline need to be developed. Later
>> it should be implemented in both Qt and Gtk(atleast). So we
>> can have a base application(say grass) and a set of GUI's
>> (ggrass,kgrass,wxgrass etc). Initially it can be implemented
>> in one toolkit and later extend to all.
>>
>
> -----
> William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
> http://www.kyngchaos.com/
>
> "History is an illusion caused by the passage of time, and time is an
> illusion caused by the passage of history."
>
> - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>

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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI - platforms

HamishB
> Someone also mentioned wxwindows as a platform candidate. I haven't
> heard of this. Has anyone else?


sure, Audacity among others useses it.
  http://audacity.sourceforge.net/



Hamish

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Re: Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI - platforms

Newcomb, Doug
In reply to this post by Michael Barton
Michael,
I believe OSSIM http://www.ossim.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=10
uses wxWindows, or at least initially .  You may want to contact the OSSIM
developers about their experiences with it.  Glancing at the website, it
seems that their method allows for muliple gui development options.   Now
that qt and gtk are available for windows, you don't hear as much about
wxwindows.

Doug
Doug Newcomb
USFWS
Raleigh, NC
919-856-4520 ext. 14 [hidden email]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The opinions I express are my own and are not representative of the
official policy of the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service or Dept. of Interior.
I left my signature file in /dev/null


                                                                           
             Michael Barton                                                
             <michael.barton@a                                            
             su.edu>                                                    To
             Sent by:                  William Kyngesburye                
             grassgui-admin@gr         <[hidden email]>,          
             ass.itc.it                [hidden email],                
                                       [hidden email]              
                                                                        cc
             11/16/2005 01:59                                              
             AM                                                    Subject
                                       [GRASSGUI] Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI -
                                       platforms                          
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           




Running 'natively'--or as natively as possible--will make it MUCH easier
for
more people to who want to use GRASS to do so. It will also be easier to
learn more of the complexities of GIS and spatial analysis if they can
install it easily and simply run it easily.

TclTk is somewhat easy to work with because it doesn't have to be compiled.
HOWEVER, I now have 3 versions of TclTk on my Mac--the one that comes from
Apple (that GRASS does not use), the X11 version that I prefer, and the
aqua
version that Lorenzo Moretti has used to give GRASS an optionally more
Mac-like appearance. Windows users need 2 versions of TclTk because the
version that comes with Cygwin doesn't work with GRASS. (Oh yeah and they
need Cygwin too). Some Linux users need version 8.3 in addition to the
version 8.4 that comes with their system. This is a mess. If we were to go
with TclTk, this would have to be cleaned up. But I don't know if it's
possible.

I also have heard that QT is making an open source version available for
Windows, but don't know the status of that. This is a pretty critical
issue,
but perhaps solved already.

As someone else mentioned, GIMP works pretty transparently on my Mac, even
though it runs under X11. So does Inkscape (also GTK I think). Apple gives
away a Mac-specific version of X11, so this is not a problem AFAICT. I've
seen GIMP run on Windows XP and it appears to run natively (ie., no need
for
Cygwin or x11 emulation). GTK seems to be widely standard on most Linux
systems too.

Someone also mentioned wxwindows as a platform candidate. I haven't heard
of
this. Has anyone else?

Michael
__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution and Social Change
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ 85287-2402

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton



> From: William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:43:08 -0600
> To: <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI
>
> I think the GUI toolkit should run *natively* cross-platform.
>
> GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I
> saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.
> I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well
> developed native port.
>
> Tcl/Tk: X11.  There are native builds of this on Mac and Windows.
> But, when I tried to use that on Mac OS X I ran into conflicts
> between X11 stuff and Mac OS X.  GRASS would have to be completely
> divorced from X11.
>
> Qt: native from the ground up.  I just started playing with qgis.
>  From the binaries, it's a Mac application (or Windows, or X11),
> though the GUI widgets are a lot like Windows.  I'm trying a build
> from source (so I can update GDAL in it) and maybe there are some
> settings to use some more native versions of things (like the open/
> save dialogs).
>
>
> As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to
> abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use
> whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.  It might even
> then be possible to plug binaries of the GRASS GUI library into a
> GRASS binary to switch between GUIs.  Maybe start with Qt and add
> others later.  Just a thought.
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:33 PM, Sajith VK wrote:
>
>>
>> Tool kit(TK/GTK/QT)
>> -----------------------------
>> Custom application development is very important in
>> GIS. Hence selection of toolkit decides the way in which
>> we can develop custom applications based on GRASS. Now each
>> programmer has his own choice for toolkit. I like Gnome(and uses Gtk),
>> and similarly someone else may like KDE(and use QT).
>> So first a generic outline need to be developed. Later
>> it should be implemented in both Qt and Gtk(atleast). So we
>> can have a base application(say grass) and a set of GUI's
>> (ggrass,kgrass,wxgrass etc). Initially it can be implemented
>> in one toolkit and later extend to all.
>>
>
> -----
> William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
> http://www.kyngchaos.com/
>
> "History is an illusion caused by the passage of time, and time is an
> illusion caused by the passage of history."
>
> - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>

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Re: Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI - platforms

Riccardo Rigon
In reply to this post by Michael Barton
Dear guys, I am looking to all of your discussion and following your  
respectable opinions. My opinion is
the JGRASS is a valuable GUI alternative to the official GRASS GUI,  
especially if you download the CVS version. Moreover it works fine in  
Windows, after a port without CGYWIN of many GRASS commands.

As someone pointed out, JGRASS is a Java program and requires the  
Java Virtual Machine. This could be a problem for downloading if  
someone has a minimal band width. However, if some version of Linux  
do not have the JVM, other have and the bandwidth problem is easily  
solvable asking a CD or a DVD at minimal cost to Hydrologis.

QT is a valuable choice, however they are year that I wait for the  
clarification of its licensing under Windows.

JGRASS is GPL, its interface is highly configurable by using XML and,  
by the way, the Java world opens, among the possible developments, a  
neat interfacing to databases (for professional use) and to include  
some OpenGIS features into the GRASS world.

Actually JGRASS run side by side with GRASS 6.0 and let it live  
unmodified.

Best regards,

Riccardo Rigon


On Nov 16, 2005, at 7:59 AM, Michael Barton wrote:


> Running 'natively'--or as natively as possible--will make it MUCH  
> easier for
> more people to who want to use GRASS to do so. It will also be  
> easier to
> learn more of the complexities of GIS and spatial analysis if they can
> install it easily and simply run it easily.
>
> TclTk is somewhat easy to work with because it doesn't have to be  
> compiled.
> HOWEVER, I now have 3 versions of TclTk on my Mac--the one that  
> comes from
> Apple (that GRASS does not use), the X11 version that I prefer, and  
> the aqua
> version that Lorenzo Moretti has used to give GRASS an optionally more
> Mac-like appearance. Windows users need 2 versions of TclTk because  
> the
> version that comes with Cygwin doesn't work with GRASS. (Oh yeah  
> and they
> need Cygwin too). Some Linux users need version 8.3 in addition to the
> version 8.4 that comes with their system. This is a mess. If we  
> were to go
> with TclTk, this would have to be cleaned up. But I don't know if it's
> possible.
>
> I also have heard that QT is making an open source version  
> available for
> Windows, but don't know the status of that. This is a pretty  
> critical issue,
> but perhaps solved already.
>
> As someone else mentioned, GIMP works pretty transparently on my  
> Mac, even
> though it runs under X11. So does Inkscape (also GTK I think).  
> Apple gives
> away a Mac-specific version of X11, so this is not a problem  
> AFAICT. I've
> seen GIMP run on Windows XP and it appears to run natively (ie., no  
> need for
> Cygwin or x11 emulation). GTK seems to be widely standard on most  
> Linux
> systems too.
>
> Someone also mentioned wxwindows as a platform candidate. I haven't  
> heard of
> this. Has anyone else?
>
> Michael
> __________________________________________
> Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
> School of Human Evolution and Social Change
> Arizona State University
> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402
>
> phone: 480-965-6213
> fax: 480-965-7671
> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:43:08 -0600
>> To: <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI
>>
>> I think the GUI toolkit should run *natively* cross-platform.
>>
>> GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I
>> saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.
>> I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well
>> developed native port.
>>
>> Tcl/Tk: X11.  There are native builds of this on Mac and Windows.
>> But, when I tried to use that on Mac OS X I ran into conflicts
>> between X11 stuff and Mac OS X.  GRASS would have to be completely
>> divorced from X11.
>>
>> Qt: native from the ground up.  I just started playing with qgis.
>>  From the binaries, it's a Mac application (or Windows, or X11),
>> though the GUI widgets are a lot like Windows.  I'm trying a build
>> from source (so I can update GDAL in it) and maybe there are some
>> settings to use some more native versions of things (like the open/
>> save dialogs).
>>
>>
>> As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to
>> abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use
>> whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.  It might even
>> then be possible to plug binaries of the GRASS GUI library into a
>> GRASS binary to switch between GUIs.  Maybe start with Qt and add
>> others later.  Just a thought.
>>
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:33 PM, Sajith VK wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Tool kit(TK/GTK/QT)
>>> -----------------------------
>>> Custom application development is very important in
>>> GIS. Hence selection of toolkit decides the way in which
>>> we can develop custom applications based on GRASS. Now each
>>> programmer has his own choice for toolkit. I like Gnome(and uses  
>>> Gtk),
>>> and similarly someone else may like KDE(and use QT).
>>> So first a generic outline need to be developed. Later
>>> it should be implemented in both Qt and Gtk(atleast). So we
>>> can have a base application(say grass) and a set of GUI's
>>> (ggrass,kgrass,wxgrass etc). Initially it can be implemented
>>> in one toolkit and later extend to all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> -----
>> William Kyngesburye <[hidden email]>
>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/
>>
>> "History is an illusion caused by the passage of time, and time is an
>> illusion caused by the passage of history."
>>
>> - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI - platforms

Markus Neteler-3
In reply to this post by Newcomb, Doug
[hidden email] wrote:

>Michael,
>I believe OSSIM http://www.ossim.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=10
>uses wxWindows, or at least initially .  You may want to contact the OSSIM
>developers about their experiences with it.  Glancing at the website, it
>seems that their method allows for muliple gui development options.   Now
>that qt and gtk are available for windows, you don't hear as much about
>wxwindows.
>
>  
>
See also the old threads:
 http://grass.itc.it/pipermail/grass5/2000-October/thread.html#11696
 http://grass.itc.it/pipermail/grass5/2002-October/006542.html

Mhh, can't find the old screenshot of v.in.shape GUI generated with
--xml-description and wxWindows from Jan or Bernhard.

Markus

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Re: [GRASS5] GRASS GUI

Glynn Clements
In reply to this post by William Kyngesburye

William Kyngesburye wrote:

> GTK: X11.  That is, on Mac OS X is requires the X11 environment.  I  
> saw the beginnings of a native Mac port, but it could take a while.  
> I'm not sure how it works on Windows, cygwin?  I think I saw a well  
> developed native port.

The native Windows port of GTK works well. I got a substantial
GTK/OpenGL application working on Windows with very little effort
(most of the effort was porting opendir/readdir/closedir to
FindFirstFile/FindNextFile).

> As for a choice of GUI kits, I wonder if would be possible to  
> abstract the GUI functions in a GRASS library, and that will use  
> whichever GUI kit was built into that copy of GRASS.  It might even  
> then be possible to plug binaries of the GRASS GUI library into a  
> GRASS binary to switch between GUIs.  Maybe start with Qt and add  
> others later.  Just a thought.

Abstracting the GUI toolkit is far too much work. This is what
wxWindows and Mozilla's XPFE do, and they're both massive projects.

--
Glynn Clements <[hidden email]>

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