GRASS 7 planning

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GRASS 7 planning

Markus Neteler
Hi,

since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out later
in 6.4.x)
I would propose to

- now release 6.3.0
- branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may continue)
- rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there

We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
not wait any longer.

See also
http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning

Objections?

Markus
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Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

hamish-2
Markus Neteler wrote:
> since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out
> later in 6.4.x)

Only six more active tickets! Last chance for everyone to have a look.
  http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap

> I would propose to
>
> - now release 6.3.0

draft release announcement here:
  http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release/6.3.0-News
 (still needs heavy editing; anyone with a osgeo ID can help)

> - branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may
> continue)
> - rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there
>
> We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
> not wait any longer.
>
> See also
> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>
> Objections?

/me: go go go.


Hamish





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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Maris Nartiss
Hi,

I don't want to ruin Your optimistic day, but there are yet 44 open
bugs and 9 (!) submitted patches in old bug tracker
(http://wald.intevation.org/tracker/?group_id=21).
Also there is an unreported bug in NVIZ panel code (switching from
"fly" mode to "eye/center" fail), that I will look into within next
hours. (Exists in 6.3.0RC4 and current svn trunk)

I'm NOT proposing to delay 6.3.0. Just pointing out, that current bug
tracking system does not reflect current code quality status.

Release 6.3.0 -> make old bugtracker cleaning day -> backport from 6.4
-> release 6.3.1 ?

Just my 0.002,
Maris.

2008/2/9, Hamish <[hidden email]>:

> Markus Neteler wrote:
> > since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out
> > later in 6.4.x)
>
> Only six more active tickets! Last chance for everyone to have a look.
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap
>
> > I would propose to
> >
> > - now release 6.3.0
>
> draft release announcement here:
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release/6.3.0-News
>  (still needs heavy editing; anyone with a osgeo ID can help)
>
> > - branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may
> > continue)
> > - rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there
> >
> > We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
> > not wait any longer.
> >
> > See also
> > http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
> >
> > Objections?
>
> /me: go go go.
>
>
> Hamish
>
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Benjamin Ducke-2
I'd also vote in favour of getting 6.3 out now.
Among other things, it will provide a standard code base
for other projects such as QGIS that want to build on
GRASS.

For 6.3.X, I would envision a release that includes work
on the Win32 port, wxGUI/Python stuff and 3D capabilities.

Benjamin

Maris Nartiss wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't want to ruin Your optimistic day, but there are yet 44 open
> bugs and 9 (!) submitted patches in old bug tracker
> (http://wald.intevation.org/tracker/?group_id=21).
> Also there is an unreported bug in NVIZ panel code (switching from
> "fly" mode to "eye/center" fail), that I will look into within next
> hours. (Exists in 6.3.0RC4 and current svn trunk)
>
> I'm NOT proposing to delay 6.3.0. Just pointing out, that current bug
> tracking system does not reflect current code quality status.
>
> Release 6.3.0 -> make old bugtracker cleaning day -> backport from 6.4
> -> release 6.3.1 ?
>
> Just my 0.002,
> Maris.
>
> 2008/2/9, Hamish <[hidden email]>:
>> Markus Neteler wrote:
>>> since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out
>>> later in 6.4.x)
>> Only six more active tickets! Last chance for everyone to have a look.
>>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap
>>
>>> I would propose to
>>>
>>> - now release 6.3.0
>> draft release announcement here:
>>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release/6.3.0-News
>>  (still needs heavy editing; anyone with a osgeo ID can help)
>>
>>> - branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may
>>> continue)
>>> - rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there
>>>
>>> We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
>>> not wait any longer.
>>>
>>> See also
>>> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>>>
>>> Objections?
>> /me: go go go.
>>
>>
>> Hamish
>>
> _______________________________________________
> grass-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
>
>

--
Benjamin Ducke, M.A.
Archäoinformatik
(Archaeoinformation Science)
Institut für Ur- und Frühgeschichte
(Inst. of Prehistoric and Historic Archaeology)
Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel
Johanna-Mestorf-Straße 2-6
D 24098 Kiel
Germany

Tel.: ++49 (0)431 880-3378 / -3379
Fax : ++49 (0)431 880-7300
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Martin Landa
Hi,

2008/2/9, Benjamin Ducke <[hidden email]>:
> I'd also vote in favour of getting 6.3 out now.
> Among other things, it will provide a standard code base
> for other projects such as QGIS that want to build on
> GRASS.

+1

> For 6.3.X, I would envision a release that includes work
> on the Win32 port, wxGUI/Python stuff and 3D capabilities.

Good point. Should be wxGUI included in 6.3.0. If so, I propose to
apply changes in configure [1], and to copy gui/wxpython to
releasebranch_6_3 before 6.3.0 will be tagged. (?)

Martin

[1] http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/38

--
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Markus Neteler
In reply to this post by Maris Nartiss
On Feb 9, 2008 9:30 AM, Maris Nartiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I don't want to ruin Your optimistic day, but there are yet 44 open
> bugs and 9 (!) submitted patches in old bug tracker
> (http://wald.intevation.org/tracker/?group_id=21).

I have added the bugtracker links to
http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning

If there are patches, they need to be tested and applied.
If this doesn't happen... we cannot delay forever (luckily higher
version numbers are yet free :).

> Also there is an unreported bug in NVIZ panel code (switching from
> "fly" mode to "eye/center" fail), that I will look into within next
> hours. (Exists in 6.3.0RC4 and current svn trunk)

Thanks for looking into this!

> I'm NOT proposing to delay 6.3.0. Just pointing out, that current bug
> tracking system does not reflect current code quality status.

Why do you think so? This would mean than many bugs are missing the
the trackers? Are you sure about that?

> Release 6.3.0 -> make old bugtracker cleaning day -> backport from 6.4
> -> release 6.3.1 ?

Ideally yes. In the real world the old bugtracker cleaning day didn't happen
yet although proposed...

Markus
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Maris Nartiss
Hi all.
Comments in-line.
2008/2/9, Markus Neteler <[hidden email]>:

> I have added the bugtracker links to
> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>
> If there are patches, they need to be tested and applied.
> If this doesn't happen... we cannot delay forever (luckily higher
> version numbers are yet free :).
>
> > Also there is an unreported bug in NVIZ panel code (switching from
> > "fly" mode to "eye/center" fail), that I will look into within next
> > hours. (Exists in 6.3.0RC4 and current svn trunk)
>
> Thanks for looking into this!
Bug description and possible patch here:
http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/42
Still NVIZ UI needs some loving.

> > I'm NOT proposing to delay 6.3.0. Just pointing out, that current bug
> > tracking system does not reflect current code quality status.
>
> Why do you think so? This would mean than many bugs are missing the
> the trackers? Are you sure about that?
>
Sorry for being unclear - I was pointing out, that we currently have
three bugtrackers and current code quality can NOT be qualified basing
only on latest(current) bugtracker bugs, as there are some bugs left
in previous trackers.

> > Release 6.3.0 -> make old bugtracker cleaning day -> backport from 6.4
> > -> release 6.3.1 ?
>
> Ideally yes. In the real world the old bugtracker cleaning day didn't happen
> yet although proposed...
>
Then let's try to make another bug trigage day after 6.3.0 release
(till we succeed).

> Markus
>

Maris.
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Martin Landa
In reply to this post by Martin Landa
Hi,

2008/2/9, Martin Landa <[hidden email]>:
[snip]

> > For 6.3.X, I would envision a release that includes work
> > on the Win32 port, wxGUI/Python stuff and 3D capabilities.
>
> Good point. Should be wxGUI included in 6.3.0. If so, I propose to
> apply changes in configure [1], and to copy gui/wxpython to
> releasebranch_6_3 before 6.3.0 will be tagged. (?)

correction: Should be wxGUI included in 6.3.0?

>From my point of view: -0

So:
6.3.x - no wxgui
6.4.x - wxgui included

Martin

> [1] http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/38
>
> --
> Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa *
>


--
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Markus Neteler
On Feb 9, 2008 1:57 PM, Martin Landa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2008/2/9, Martin Landa <[hidden email]>:
> > > For 6.3.X, I would envision a release that includes work
> > > on the Win32 port, wxGUI/Python stuff and 3D capabilities.
> >
> > Good point. Should be wxGUI included in 6.3.0. If so, I propose to
> > apply changes in configure [1], and to copy gui/wxpython to
> > releasebranch_6_3 before 6.3.0 will be tagged. (?)
>
> correction: Should be wxGUI included in 6.3.0?
>
> So:
> 6.3.x - no wxgui
> 6.4.x - wxgui included

I would say so.

I have added "Release scopes" at:
http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning

Markus
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Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Michael Barton
In reply to this post by Markus Neteler
Markus,

I just fixed a small, but fatal problem with the wxgui georectifier.  
 From my perspective the TclTk GUI seems fine. Using wingrass in my  
class has exposed some issues that have all been fixed except for one  
with v.in.ascii (and possibly other modules using dbmi). The latter  
seems to be restricted to cases of attempting to import poorly  
formated data files (different numbers of fields in different  
records). It sounds difficult to fix and may not be worth the effort  
for 6.3.0.

I'd say go ahead and release 6.3.0

My vote is +1
...meaning that I will help with whatever is needed to get this out  
the door.

Michael
____________________
C. Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
Director of Graduate Studies
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

Phone: 480-965-6262
Fax: 480-965-7671
www: <www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton>



On Feb 8, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Markus Neteler wrote:

> Hi,
>
> since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out later
> in 6.4.x)
> I would propose to
>
> - now release 6.3.0
> - branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may  
> continue)
> - rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there
>
> We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
> not wait any longer.
>
> See also
> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>
> Objections?
>
> Markus
> _______________________________________________
> grass-psc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-psc

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Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Michael Barton
In reply to this post by hamish-2
I'll try to fix the NVIZ bug. It's a nasty one.

Michael
____________________
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Director of Graduate Studies
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

Phone: 480-965-6262
Fax: 480-965-7671
www: <www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton>



On Feb 8, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Hamish wrote:

> Markus Neteler wrote:
>> since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out
>> later in 6.4.x)
>
> Only six more active tickets! Last chance for everyone to have a look.
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap
>
>> I would propose to
>>
>> - now release 6.3.0
>
> draft release announcement here:
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release/6.3.0-News
>  (still needs heavy editing; anyone with a osgeo ID can help)
>
>> - branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may
>> continue)
>> - rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there
>>
>> We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
>> not wait any longer.
>>
>> See also
>> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>>
>> Objections?
>
> /me: go go go.
>
>
> Hamish
>
>
>
>
>
>        
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://
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>
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Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Michael Barton
In reply to this post by hamish-2


On Feb 8, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Hamish wrote:

> Markus Neteler wrote:
>> since 6.3.0X is almost settled (remaining bugs can be worked out
>> later in 6.4.x)
>
> Only six more active tickets! Last chance for everyone to have a look.
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap

I fixed the NVIZ bug. Does anyone know the status of the patch Maris  
Nartiss attached to the ticket?

Michael

>
>> I would propose to
>>
>> - now release 6.3.0
>
> draft release announcement here:
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release/6.3.0-News
>  (still needs heavy editing; anyone with a osgeo ID can help)
>
>> - branch off 6.4.x (where wxgrass and some other development may
>> continue)
>> - rename trunk to GRASS 7.0.svn, do heavy renovation there
>>
>> We have so many outstanding massive changes to do that we should
>> not wait any longer.
>>
>> See also
>> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>>
>> Objections?
>
> /me: go go go.
>
>
> Hamish
>
>
>
>
>
>        
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://
> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
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Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Michael Barton
In reply to this post by hamish-2

On Feb 8, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Hamish wrote:

> Only six more active tickets! Last chance for everyone to have a look.
>   http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap
>

I applied Maris' patch. I had to make one small modification, but  
otherwise it seems OK.

Michael
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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

hamish-2
In reply to this post by Markus Neteler
Maris Nartiss wrote:
> > I don't want to ruin Your optimistic day, but there are yet 44 open
> > bugs and 9 (!) submitted patches in old bug tracker
> > (http://wald.intevation.org/tracker/?group_id=21).

Well yes, and there are 384 open bugs in the old RT system.
(we have already closed a lot of GRASS 5 bugs there as "wontfix", so
that number mostly applies to GRASS 6.x)

But many of those long-term bugs are still alive because they are not
simple to fix.

The majority of new bugs (trac) are likely to be quickly resolved so
are low hanging fruit and it should be a manageable task to deal with
them.

e.g. trac bug #39 (r.in.srtm + zip) should be solved in days.
Similar are SegFaults which are usually quick to fix once discovered.

Some tickets do require more debate about architectural issues (e.g.
trac #7 [auto VAR files]) and may hang around for a long time. I don't
like releasing without that addressed, but hey, that one's not really
that major if the current version is functional.


Markus:
> I have added the bugtracker links to
> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
>
> If there are patches, they need to be tested and applied.

ie *evaluated*, tested, and if they pass those hurdles then applied.

for example, looking at some of the 9 mentioned above:

(these first two are mine; I would have commited them directly if I
though they were ready)
#372  scritps for converting raster maps into GRASS 7 format, and back
  --dev experiment; doesn't apply
#374  v.what.vect additional upload options
  --not sure if it's needed (see TODO section on 6.3 release roadmap
    MediaWiki page). Unwilling to commit bloat for the sake of it.

#526  Provide option to end GRASS session from gis.m
  --discussed on the mailing list several times in the past, without
    (AFAIK) resolution about the best strategy.


> > I'm NOT proposing to delay 6.3.0. Just pointing out, that current
> > bug tracking system does not reflect current code quality status.

Right. I was just trying to focus on the new low hanging fruit.

Today's 6.3svn is up to >500k lines of code*. It's unrealistic to think
we can fix all bugs or wait for that to happen before release. I think
that is where the milestone targets in trac really help sort out the
true blockers from the "known-issues".

Some dumb metric:
384 RT wish+bug + 44 GForge + 14 open trac defects = 442 issues / 525k
SLOC = less than one issue per thousand lines of code. Not so bad.

In general (not directed at you Maris) I take issue with ideas that the
number of open bugs reflects on the current code quality status.
To me it seems that a high number of documented "known-issues" is a
strength and closing semi-fixed bugs just to get the number down is a
mistake. (that's not an exscuse not to try!)
>From a user standpoint I know when I find a bug in something if I find
an existing bug report for the issue I am reassured about the quality
of software, and maybe even get a work-around. If not I wonder what
else is broken.


[*] Results of SLOCCount 2.26 on latest svn/trunk:

Totals grouped by language (dominant language first):
ansic:       401306 (76.11%)
tcl:          45171 (8.57%)
cpp:          40649 (7.71%)
sh:           19359 (3.67%)
python:       18323 (3.47%)
perl:          1389 (0.26%)
yacc:           561 (0.11%)
lex:            480 (0.09%)
pascal:          38 (0.01%)
objc:             7 (0.00%)
sed:              1 (0.00%)

Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 527,284
Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 144.27
(1,731.24)
 (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
Schedule Estimate, Years (Months)                         = 3.54
(42.51)
 (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule)  = 40.72
Total Estimated Cost to Develop                           = $
19,488,950
 (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).



lots of blah blah blah little coding from me today,
Hamish



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Re: GRASS 7 planning

nicholas.g.lawrence
In reply to this post by Markus Neteler
I was just looking at the GRASS timeline at

http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/timeline

The date format is month/day/year.

Can we change the date format to something more international?

Like year/month/day for instance?

nick


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Re: GRASS 7 planning

Frank Warmerdam
[hidden email] wrote:
> I was just looking at the GRASS timeline at
>
> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/timeline
>
> The date format is month/day/year.
>
> Can we change the date format to something more international?
>
> Like year/month/day for instance?

Nick,

If this is a serious concern, I would encourage you to download a copy
of Trac and investigate how this could be accomplished.  If you can
identify an easy configuration option or similar to do this then file
a ticket in the OSGeo Trac (Component: SAC) with the detailed suggestions.

As one of the Trac maintainers, I'm not willing to put significant time
into investigating such a thing.  I have other ways to spend my time that
seem like they would be more useful.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org

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Re: Re: [GRASS-PSC] GRASS 7 planning

Dylan Beaudette-2
In reply to this post by Maris Nartiss
I'll pitch in some time migrating bugs over to trac if that would be helpful.

Dylan

On Feb 9, 2008 4:02 AM, Maris Nartiss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all.
> Comments in-line.
> 2008/2/9, Markus Neteler <[hidden email]>:
> > I have added the bugtracker links to
> > http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Grass7Planning
> >
> > If there are patches, they need to be tested and applied.
> > If this doesn't happen... we cannot delay forever (luckily higher
> > version numbers are yet free :).
> >
> > > Also there is an unreported bug in NVIZ panel code (switching from
> > > "fly" mode to "eye/center" fail), that I will look into within next
> > > hours. (Exists in 6.3.0RC4 and current svn trunk)
> >
> > Thanks for looking into this!
> Bug description and possible patch here:
> http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/42
> Still NVIZ UI needs some loving.
>
> > > I'm NOT proposing to delay 6.3.0. Just pointing out, that current bug
> > > tracking system does not reflect current code quality status.
> >
> > Why do you think so? This would mean than many bugs are missing the
> > the trackers? Are you sure about that?
> >
> Sorry for being unclear - I was pointing out, that we currently have
> three bugtrackers and current code quality can NOT be qualified basing
> only on latest(current) bugtracker bugs, as there are some bugs left
> in previous trackers.
>
> > > Release 6.3.0 -> make old bugtracker cleaning day -> backport from 6.4
> > > -> release 6.3.1 ?
> >
> > Ideally yes. In the real world the old bugtracker cleaning day didn't happen
> > yet although proposed...
> >
> Then let's try to make another bug trigage day after 6.3.0 release
> (till we succeed).
>
> > Markus
> >
>
> Maris.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
>
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Re: GRASS 7 planning

Markus Neteler
In reply to this post by Frank Warmerdam
On Feb 11, 2008 2:01 AM, Frank Warmerdam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
> > I was just looking at the GRASS timeline at
> >
> > http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/timeline
> >
> > The date format is month/day/year.
> >
> > Can we change the date format to something more international?
> >
> > Like year/month/day for instance?
>
> Nick,
>
> If this is a serious concern, I would encourage you to download a copy
> of Trac and investigate how this could be accomplished.  If you can
> identify an easy configuration option or similar to do this then file
> a ticket in the OSGeo Trac (Component: SAC) with the detailed suggestions.

Here is the FAQ:
http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracFaq#how-do-i-change-the-format-used-for-displaying-date-and-time


> As one of the Trac maintainers, I'm not willing to put significant time
> into investigating such a thing.  I have other ways to spend my time that
> seem like they would be more useful.

It seems to be pretty straightforward.

Best regards,
Markus
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Re: GRASS 7 planning

Glynn Clements

Markus Neteler wrote:

> > > I was just looking at the GRASS timeline at
> > >
> > > http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/timeline
> > >
> > > The date format is month/day/year.
> > >
> > > Can we change the date format to something more international?
> > >
> > > Like year/month/day for instance?
> >
> > Nick,
> >
> > If this is a serious concern, I would encourage you to download a copy
> > of Trac and investigate how this could be accomplished.  If you can
> > identify an easy configuration option or similar to do this then file
> > a ticket in the OSGeo Trac (Component: SAC) with the detailed suggestions.
>
> Here is the FAQ:
> http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracFaq#how-do-i-change-the-format-used-for-displaying-date-and-time

That changes the locale, not the format.

But you might get close enough with LC_TIME=en_DK, which uses
yyyy-mm-dd for %x (abbreviated date format) while remaining an English
locale.

But using mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy is unacceptable for an international
project, as either format is likely to be misinterpreted by a
substantial proportion of users.

--
Glynn Clements <[hidden email]>
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