Fwd: [Live-demo] Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

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Fwd: [Live-demo] Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

blammo
All,

Just passing som info on about OSGeo Live project (potential changes).

Some info about the OSGeo-Live project.  There are also some milestone/cut-off dates in here related to including projects (like GeoMOOSE) in the OSGeo-Live project to watch for, especially if the plan is to have GM 3.0 included.

bobb



To: Live Demo <[hidden email]>, Discuss <[hidden email]>

Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

18 April 2017

For our next OSGeo-Live release, 11.0, we propose to reduce the number of packages included, and only support a 64 bit distribution, (32 bit will be built but not tested or officially supported).

Factors leading to this suggestion include:
1. Some projects have dwindling communities and momentum.
2. Increased OSGeo-Live scope has increased our core maintenance and testing.
3. Reduced engagement from projects (partly due to less core time spent reaching out to projects)
4. Missing our first release milestone in 9 years.

From our options of reduce quality, become more efficient, increase volunteer engagement, find a sponsor to support core activities, and reduce scope, reducing scope is our most viable and acceptable option. Other ideas are welcomed.

Questions we will ask in assessing which projects to keep include:
1. Is there an ACTIVE OSGeo-Live liaison person/people for the project? Prior list is copied to "Contact" column at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q5BaEgQtgw4O1bXyeWMlM8XtAOhUgcjZ7Y2O0FZc2H0/edit?hl=en_GB#gid=2014800150
2. Has the Project Overview and Quickstart been reviewed and are they current and complete?
3. Do OpenHub metrics reflect an active and healthy community: https://live.osgeo.org/en/metrics.html
4. Is the project being updated on OSGeo-Live with each release?


Key Milestones
---------------
5-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live Feature Freeze (final application versions installed)
19-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live delivered to UAT (final application versions installed - Beta stage)
24-Jul-2017 OSGeo-Live Final ISO
14-Aug-2017 FOSS4G 2017 Boston

full schedule:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Al9zh8DjmU_RdE1SYUN3YWJ2N1NpSUczbW9IRWZNclE&hl=en_GB

About OSGeo-Live
----------------
OSGeo-Live (http://live.osgeo.org) is a Lubuntu (http://lubuntu.net) based distribution of Geospatial Open Source Software, available via a Live DVD, Virtual Machine and USB. You can use OSGeo-Live to try a wide variety of open source geospatial software without installing anything.


Greetings from th OSGeo-Live Team!

--

Astrid Emde
Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/User:Astrid_Emde
_______________________________________________
Live-demo mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/live-demo
http://live.osgeo.org
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc



Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry




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Re: Fwd: [Live-demo] Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

James Klassen-2
I have been quietly following this discussion on the OSGeo-Live list.  This is my take from the perspective of the one who does most of the work maintaining GeoMoose on OSGeo-Live.

Well for starters the OpenHub page is complete BS.  I am not sure what, if anything can be done about it.

It doesn't see the full history (back to the Sourceforge/OpenMNND days), nor does it see the most recent 3.x work.  It is seriously confused about the contributors list.  It is wrong about the dominant language (it says PHP instead of JS).  I am not sure how it is or isn't dealing with submodules and if it is or isn't counting OpenLayers and dojo as part of GeoMoose.  I suspect most of this is due to how our repositories have evolved over time.  I also flat out refuse to support anything that hampers our project's ability to maintain sutiable workflows for us just to get better stats on OpenHub.

We could use to update the screenshots in the quickstart and overview.  I haven't been doing that as it is a bit of a PITA to reproduce them and the look hasn't significantly changed lately.

I don't know if we fall under reduced engagement or not.  I do actively test GeoMoose on the alphas and betas when they are announced, but I am not sure anyone knows I do so.  Second, frankly, things have generally just worked so there isn't much to do/say except occasionally bump a version number in the installer and the docs.

I do have to say that since the OSGeo Live project reorganized (about the time they switched to github), it has been significantly more difficult for me to maintain GeoMoose on Live.  One issue is I haven't been able to figure out how to build from scratch anymore (last I looked I couldn't find working, up to date instructions) so I end up having to do any updates semi-blind (I can re-run the GeoMoode installer on a release but that isn't necessarily the same as testing installing from scratch), so I have to make a pull request and wait for it to get accepted then download the next "nightly" and associated log to see what happened.  As these are all ~4GB this takes awhile.  (It would be really nice if there was a sane way to pull down the diff between nightlies or similar, but it would be nicer if building was easy.)

I also know there has been a big push to move OSGeo Live installers entirely to debian packages.  After giving it a lot of thought and after many discussions with others, my personal take is this would have negative consequences for GeoMoose as it would effectively mean packaging the demo.  The problem with this is this isn't compatible with how people use/install GeoMoose in practice. They start with the demo and then customize the data/config and sometimes more. Having it as a deb would make updating nearly impossible, and would make running multiple instances needlessly complex.  In contrast, the current install_geomoose.sh script included on Live is a working example of how someone could get started installing GeoMoose on their machine.  I feel this is much more in line with the goals of OSGeo Live of introducing people to and helping people get started with FOSS4G.

BTW, This is essentially the same set of problems with the debian packaging of other web apps/frameworks that expect heavy customization (e.g. WordPress). Sure it installs, but it works a lot better to pull down the tarball and install outside of dpkg.  This may be an application design issue due to being somewhere between a finished application and a library/framework.  GeoMoose 3.x might relieve this some by explicitly separating the core library from the (demo) applications, but that remains to be seen.

Generally, I'd say I put in 4-8 hours per OSGeo Live release between updating to the most recent stable GeoMoose, then downloading and testing alphas and betas.  That is about all the time I am able to donate to the cause.


On Apr 17, 2017 16:47, "Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
All,

Just passing som info on about OSGeo Live project (potential changes).

Some info about the OSGeo-Live project.  There are also some milestone/cut-off dates in here related to including projects (like GeoMOOSE) in the OSGeo-Live project to watch for, especially if the plan is to have GM 3.0 included.

bobb



To: Live Demo <[hidden email]>, Discuss <[hidden email]>

Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

18 April 2017

For our next OSGeo-Live release, 11.0, we propose to reduce the number of packages included, and only support a 64 bit distribution, (32 bit will be built but not tested or officially supported).

Factors leading to this suggestion include:
1. Some projects have dwindling communities and momentum.
2. Increased OSGeo-Live scope has increased our core maintenance and testing.
3. Reduced engagement from projects (partly due to less core time spent reaching out to projects)
4. Missing our first release milestone in 9 years.

From our options of reduce quality, become more efficient, increase volunteer engagement, find a sponsor to support core activities, and reduce scope, reducing scope is our most viable and acceptable option. Other ideas are welcomed.

Questions we will ask in assessing which projects to keep include:
1. Is there an ACTIVE OSGeo-Live liaison person/people for the project? Prior list is copied to "Contact" column at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q5BaEgQtgw4O1bXyeWMlM8XtAOhUgcjZ7Y2O0FZc2H0/edit?hl=en_GB#gid=2014800150
2. Has the Project Overview and Quickstart been reviewed and are they current and complete?
3. Do OpenHub metrics reflect an active and healthy community: https://live.osgeo.org/en/metrics.html
4. Is the project being updated on OSGeo-Live with each release?


Key Milestones
---------------
5-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live Feature Freeze (final application versions installed)
19-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live delivered to UAT (final application versions installed - Beta stage)
24-Jul-2017 OSGeo-Live Final ISO
14-Aug-2017 FOSS4G 2017 Boston

full schedule:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Al9zh8DjmU_RdE1SYUN3YWJ2N1NpSUczbW9IRWZNclE&hl=en_GB

About OSGeo-Live
----------------
OSGeo-Live (http://live.osgeo.org) is a Lubuntu (http://lubuntu.net) based distribution of Geospatial Open Source Software, available via a Live DVD, Virtual Machine and USB. You can use OSGeo-Live to try a wide variety of open source geospatial software without installing anything.


Greetings from th OSGeo-Live Team!

--

Astrid Emde
Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/User:Astrid_Emde
_______________________________________________
Live-demo mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/live-demo
http://live.osgeo.org
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc



Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry




_______________________________________________
geomoose-psc mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geomoose-psc


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Re: Fwd: [Live-demo] Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

James Klassen-2
One more thing that can be problematic is we depend on other projects on the disk like Apache, PHP, and MapServer. So when they update it can upset us even if everything was working fine.  This was nearly a disaster with the PHP7/Mapscript problem a release or two ago.  It would really help if they did a "dependancy" freeze before the general freeze.

On Apr 17, 2017 17:36, "James Klassen" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have been quietly following this discussion on the OSGeo-Live list.  This is my take from the perspective of the one who does most of the work maintaining GeoMoose on OSGeo-Live.

Well for starters the OpenHub page is complete BS.  I am not sure what, if anything can be done about it.

It doesn't see the full history (back to the Sourceforge/OpenMNND days), nor does it see the most recent 3.x work.  It is seriously confused about the contributors list.  It is wrong about the dominant language (it says PHP instead of JS).  I am not sure how it is or isn't dealing with submodules and if it is or isn't counting OpenLayers and dojo as part of GeoMoose.  I suspect most of this is due to how our repositories have evolved over time.  I also flat out refuse to support anything that hampers our project's ability to maintain sutiable workflows for us just to get better stats on OpenHub.

We could use to update the screenshots in the quickstart and overview.  I haven't been doing that as it is a bit of a PITA to reproduce them and the look hasn't significantly changed lately.

I don't know if we fall under reduced engagement or not.  I do actively test GeoMoose on the alphas and betas when they are announced, but I am not sure anyone knows I do so.  Second, frankly, things have generally just worked so there isn't much to do/say except occasionally bump a version number in the installer and the docs.

I do have to say that since the OSGeo Live project reorganized (about the time they switched to github), it has been significantly more difficult for me to maintain GeoMoose on Live.  One issue is I haven't been able to figure out how to build from scratch anymore (last I looked I couldn't find working, up to date instructions) so I end up having to do any updates semi-blind (I can re-run the GeoMoode installer on a release but that isn't necessarily the same as testing installing from scratch), so I have to make a pull request and wait for it to get accepted then download the next "nightly" and associated log to see what happened.  As these are all ~4GB this takes awhile.  (It would be really nice if there was a sane way to pull down the diff between nightlies or similar, but it would be nicer if building was easy.)

I also know there has been a big push to move OSGeo Live installers entirely to debian packages.  After giving it a lot of thought and after many discussions with others, my personal take is this would have negative consequences for GeoMoose as it would effectively mean packaging the demo.  The problem with this is this isn't compatible with how people use/install GeoMoose in practice. They start with the demo and then customize the data/config and sometimes more. Having it as a deb would make updating nearly impossible, and would make running multiple instances needlessly complex.  In contrast, the current install_geomoose.sh script included on Live is a working example of how someone could get started installing GeoMoose on their machine.  I feel this is much more in line with the goals of OSGeo Live of introducing people to and helping people get started with FOSS4G.

BTW, This is essentially the same set of problems with the debian packaging of other web apps/frameworks that expect heavy customization (e.g. WordPress). Sure it installs, but it works a lot better to pull down the tarball and install outside of dpkg.  This may be an application design issue due to being somewhere between a finished application and a library/framework.  GeoMoose 3.x might relieve this some by explicitly separating the core library from the (demo) applications, but that remains to be seen.

Generally, I'd say I put in 4-8 hours per OSGeo Live release between updating to the most recent stable GeoMoose, then downloading and testing alphas and betas.  That is about all the time I am able to donate to the cause.


On Apr 17, 2017 16:47, "Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
All,

Just passing som info on about OSGeo Live project (potential changes).

Some info about the OSGeo-Live project.  There are also some milestone/cut-off dates in here related to including projects (like GeoMOOSE) in the OSGeo-Live project to watch for, especially if the plan is to have GM 3.0 included.

bobb



To: Live Demo <[hidden email]>, Discuss <[hidden email]>

Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

18 April 2017

For our next OSGeo-Live release, 11.0, we propose to reduce the number of packages included, and only support a 64 bit distribution, (32 bit will be built but not tested or officially supported).

Factors leading to this suggestion include:
1. Some projects have dwindling communities and momentum.
2. Increased OSGeo-Live scope has increased our core maintenance and testing.
3. Reduced engagement from projects (partly due to less core time spent reaching out to projects)
4. Missing our first release milestone in 9 years.

From our options of reduce quality, become more efficient, increase volunteer engagement, find a sponsor to support core activities, and reduce scope, reducing scope is our most viable and acceptable option. Other ideas are welcomed.

Questions we will ask in assessing which projects to keep include:
1. Is there an ACTIVE OSGeo-Live liaison person/people for the project? Prior list is copied to "Contact" column at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q5BaEgQtgw4O1bXyeWMlM8XtAOhUgcjZ7Y2O0FZc2H0/edit?hl=en_GB#gid=2014800150
2. Has the Project Overview and Quickstart been reviewed and are they current and complete?
3. Do OpenHub metrics reflect an active and healthy community: https://live.osgeo.org/en/metrics.html
4. Is the project being updated on OSGeo-Live with each release?


Key Milestones
---------------
5-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live Feature Freeze (final application versions installed)
19-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live delivered to UAT (final application versions installed - Beta stage)
24-Jul-2017 OSGeo-Live Final ISO
14-Aug-2017 FOSS4G 2017 Boston

full schedule:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Al9zh8DjmU_RdE1SYUN3YWJ2N1NpSUczbW9IRWZNclE&hl=en_GB

About OSGeo-Live
----------------
OSGeo-Live (http://live.osgeo.org) is a Lubuntu (http://lubuntu.net) based distribution of Geospatial Open Source Software, available via a Live DVD, Virtual Machine and USB. You can use OSGeo-Live to try a wide variety of open source geospatial software without installing anything.


Greetings from th OSGeo-Live Team!

--

Astrid Emde
Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/User:Astrid_Emde
_______________________________________________
Live-demo mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/live-demo
http://live.osgeo.org
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc



Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry




_______________________________________________
geomoose-psc mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geomoose-psc



_______________________________________________
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Re: Fwd: [Live-demo] Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release

Eli Adam
Generally, I see OSGeo Live as a way for people to get a sample of
OSGeo projects without any effort of installation or configuration and
a handy uniform installation in the case of classes and workshops.  In
the context of GeoMoose, OSGeo Live is a good exposure tool.  Some
commentary inline below.

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 7:03 PM, James Klassen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One more thing that can be problematic is we depend on other projects on the
> disk like Apache, PHP, and MapServer. So when they update it can upset us
> even if everything was working fine.  This was nearly a disaster with the
> PHP7/Mapscript problem a release or two ago.  It would really help if they
> did a "dependancy" freeze before the general freeze.
>
> On Apr 17, 2017 17:36, "James Klassen" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have been quietly following this discussion on the OSGeo-Live list.  This
> is my take from the perspective of the one who does most of the work
> maintaining GeoMoose on OSGeo-Live.

Thanks for doing this.

>
> Well for starters the OpenHub page is complete BS.  I am not sure what, if
> anything can be done about it.
>
> It doesn't see the full history (back to the Sourceforge/OpenMNND days), nor
> does it see the most recent 3.x work.  It is seriously confused about the
> contributors list.  It is wrong about the dominant language (it says PHP
> instead of JS).  I am not sure how it is or isn't dealing with submodules
> and if it is or isn't counting OpenLayers and dojo as part of GeoMoose.  I
> suspect most of this is due to how our repositories have evolved over time.
> I also flat out refuse to support anything that hampers our project's
> ability to maintain sutiable workflows for us just to get better stats on
> OpenHub.

Agree.  I don't think that many people are using OpenHub as an
evaluation tool anyway.

>
> We could use to update the screenshots in the quickstart and overview.  I
> haven't been doing that as it is a bit of a PITA to reproduce them and the
> look hasn't significantly changed lately.
>
> I don't know if we fall under reduced engagement or not.  I do actively test
> GeoMoose on the alphas and betas when they are announced, but I am not sure
> anyone knows I do so.  Second, frankly, things have generally just worked so
> there isn't much to do/say except occasionally bump a version number in the
> installer and the docs.

Commenting that things work when you test might be in order.  It also
produces some standing for when you report things breaking by changing
dependencies at that last minute.  Appearing as if you just showed up
and started making noise at the last minute when something is broken
isn't a great appearance.

>
> I do have to say that since the OSGeo Live project reorganized (about the
> time they switched to github), it has been significantly more difficult for
> me to maintain GeoMoose on Live.  One issue is I haven't been able to figure
> out how to build from scratch anymore (last I looked I couldn't find
> working, up to date instructions) so I end up having to do any updates
> semi-blind (I can re-run the GeoMoode installer on a release but that isn't
> necessarily the same as testing installing from scratch), so I have to make
> a pull request and wait for it to get accepted then download the next
> "nightly" and associated log to see what happened.  As these are all ~4GB
> this takes awhile.  (It would be really nice if there was a sane way to pull
> down the diff between nightlies or similar, but it would be nicer if
> building was easy.)
>
> I also know there has been a big push to move OSGeo Live installers entirely
> to debian packages.  After giving it a lot of thought and after many
> discussions with others, my personal take is this would have negative
> consequences for GeoMoose as it would effectively mean packaging the demo.

Right, QGIS as a package is great because it is just as you use it.
They are the same thing.  This is not true with GeoMoose at all.  No
one has any reason to run the demo for purposes other than looking at
it, modification, testing, etc.

> The problem with this is this isn't compatible with how people use/install
> GeoMoose in practice. They start with the demo and then customize the
> data/config and sometimes more. Having it as a deb would make updating
> nearly impossible, and would make running multiple instances needlessly
> complex.  In contrast, the current install_geomoose.sh script included on
> Live is a working example of how someone could get started installing
> GeoMoose on their machine.  I feel this is much more in line with the goals
> of OSGeo Live of introducing people to and helping people get started with
> FOSS4G.
>
> BTW, This is essentially the same set of problems with the debian packaging
> of other web apps/frameworks that expect heavy customization (e.g.
> WordPress). Sure it installs, but it works a lot better to pull down the
> tarball and install outside of dpkg.  This may be an application design
> issue due to being somewhere between a finished application and a
> library/framework.  GeoMoose 3.x might relieve this some by explicitly
> separating the core library from the (demo) applications, but that remains
> to be seen.

This is a tricky mix and I'm not sure that there is a great approach.

>
> Generally, I'd say I put in 4-8 hours per OSGeo Live release between
> updating to the most recent stable GeoMoose, then downloading and testing
> alphas and betas.  That is about all the time I am able to donate to the
> cause.
>

Keep up the good work and let's see where OSGeo Live goes.  If it
continues to be a good tool to reach new users and for workshops then
that works well for GeoMoose inclusion.  If it becomes a Debian
packaging effort, that is great for many things like desktop projects
but not that relevant for inclusion of projects are more of a mix
between libraries and implementations.

Best regards, Eli


>
> On Apr 17, 2017 16:47, "Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul)"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Just passing som info on about OSGeo Live project (potential changes).
>
> Some info about the OSGeo-Live project.  There are also some
> milestone/cut-off dates in here related to including projects (like
> GeoMOOSE) in the OSGeo-Live project to watch for, especially if the plan is
> to have GM 3.0 included.
>
> bobb
>
>
>
> To: Live Demo <[hidden email]>, Discuss <[hidden email]>
>
> Reducing scope of OSGeo-Live for next 11.0 release
>
> 18 April 2017
>
> For our next OSGeo-Live release, 11.0, we propose to reduce the number of
> packages included, and only support a 64 bit distribution, (32 bit will be
> built but not tested or officially supported).
>
> Factors leading to this suggestion include:
> 1. Some projects have dwindling communities and momentum.
> 2. Increased OSGeo-Live scope has increased our core maintenance and
> testing.
> 3. Reduced engagement from projects (partly due to less core time spent
> reaching out to projects)
> 4. Missing our first release milestone in 9 years.
>
> From our options of reduce quality, become more efficient, increase
> volunteer engagement, find a sponsor to support core activities, and reduce
> scope, reducing scope is our most viable and acceptable option. Other ideas
> are welcomed.
>
> Questions we will ask in assessing which projects to keep include:
> 1. Is there an ACTIVE OSGeo-Live liaison person/people for the project?
> Prior list is copied to "Contact" column at:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q5BaEgQtgw4O1bXyeWMlM8XtAOhUgcjZ7Y2O0FZc2H0/edit?hl=en_GB#gid=2014800150
> 2. Has the Project Overview and Quickstart been reviewed and are they
> current and complete?
> 3. Do OpenHub metrics reflect an active and healthy community:
> https://live.osgeo.org/en/metrics.html
> 4. Is the project being updated on OSGeo-Live with each release?
>
>
> Key Milestones
> ---------------
> 5-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live Feature Freeze (final application versions installed)
> 19-Jun-2017 OSGeo-Live delivered to UAT (final application versions
> installed - Beta stage)
> 24-Jul-2017 OSGeo-Live Final ISO
> 14-Aug-2017 FOSS4G 2017 Boston
>
> full schedule:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Al9zh8DjmU_RdE1SYUN3YWJ2N1NpSUczbW9IRWZNclE&hl=en_GB
>
> About OSGeo-Live
> ----------------
> OSGeo-Live (http://live.osgeo.org) is a Lubuntu (http://lubuntu.net) based
> distribution of Geospatial Open Source Software, available via a Live DVD,
> Virtual Machine and USB. You can use OSGeo-Live to try a wide variety of
> open source geospatial software without installing anything.
>
>
> Greetings from th OSGeo-Live Team!
>
> --
>
> Astrid Emde
> Charter Member
> Open Source Geospatial Foundation
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/User:Astrid_Emde
> _______________________________________________
> Live-demo mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/live-demo
> http://live.osgeo.org
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc
>
>
>
>
> Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
> there is nothing left to take away.
> —Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> geomoose-psc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geomoose-psc
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> geomoose-psc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geomoose-psc
_______________________________________________
geomoose-psc mailing list
[hidden email]
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