Costly FOSS4Gs

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Costly FOSS4Gs

Ravi Kumar-3


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar

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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

jody.garnett
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
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Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett

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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

jmckenna
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ravi Kumar-3
Hi Ravi,

Great question, and an important topic for Charter members.  I know
there was a recent spreadsheet of relative costs (I was shown it
post-FOSS4G Boston), but that doesn't answer your question at all, as
your question is asking for our own opinions.

As you know, I have attended and help organize many FOSS4G events,
local, regional, and international, which gives me a good perspective to
analyze this.  In fact on Friday I'll leave for FOSS4G-State-of-the-Map
Argentina, which has a full registration cost of 20 USD (yes you read
that correct, not including workshop cost).  FOSS4G-Europe (I've
attended most of them) is consistently very affordable, and geared for
students.  Your FOSS4G-India is also geared for students.  FOSS4G-Japan
events (Kyoto.Kansai is happening now) is usually held at university
campuses or affordable venues.  FOSS4G-Asia events are always geared for
students, and are very affordable.  FOSS4G-Russia events are very
affordable (attendees must buy or bring their own lunches, and have no
problem with that). Our international FOSS4G's are not affordable
however, because the venue costs are so high (usually large conference
center venues, the only venue that can hold such a high number of
attendees usually, which has strict rules about food catering, and high
costs for those) that the only way we can break even is to charge
attendees a higher registration fee.

As I wrote in my manifesto, the original vision of FOSS4G by OSGeo was
to plant a seed in a new community - this was my vision as I managed the
selection process all those years.

Now fast forward to 2017, and what is OSGeo's vision of FOSS4G?  Let's
be honest, there are now many different factors involved today, than
back in 2005/2006.  We have such a strong academic, private, public
sector community in OSGeo today that all have different needs and
representation.  FOSS4G-Boston, at a strikingly gorgeous venue along the
Boston waterfront, was heavily attended by industry - as you likely
heard, it was an overwhelming success.  The harsh reality was that most
of the core that attended FOSS4G-Europe a few weeks before could not
afford FOSS4G-Boston (and it's downtown hotels etc).  But that is not a
knock against the Boston event - as that spreadsheet shows, the relative
costs haven't changed much, it has always been an expensive event.

So how do we have both, a core event where we can all afford to attend,
and at the same time have a bigger event that is needed by all academic,
private, public sectors?  Well, this in my opinion is where our
local/regional FOSS4G's play a very important role.

If I am elected to the Board, I would like to help bring the spotlight
to these smaller FOSS4G events, and help introduce some funding to help
these smaller events run by local chapters (recently I've tried
assisting several smaller events around the world to get funding from
the OSGeo Board, and I can tell you that it is very difficult for the
smaller event organizers to see through the red tape currently in
place).  I feel that we can do better as a foundation to help these
smaller FOSS4G events grow and shine.  This is my focus.  (we do have
Code Sprint funding available, but I'd like to put on the table for
discussion a "FOSS4G Regional Event Funding" process, to the OSGeo
Board, in the form of a grant/gift, nothing to do with "profit
sharing").  This would of course depend on the upcoming budget for the
foundation.  But that is one idea that I have.

In terms of reducing the cost of the international event, that is much
more difficult.  I know Ravi, that breaks our OSGeo heart reading this,
and it hurts writing that, but each year the local committee does their
best to keep costs as low as possible, given the venue demands (Boston,
the 2018 team, and the 2019 bidders all must keep cost under
consideration).  And the OSGeo Conference Committee is tasked with
keeping an eye on this as well.

I haven't solved anything, but I tried to give you my thoughts on your
good question. I can tell you that I am very concerned about FOSS4G
costs, and will do my best to represent your great interests, if elected
:)  I will also try to analyze this analysis spreadsheet more closely,
when I see it again (it was only shown to be in a dark bar ha, not the
best setting).

Good night here Ravi!  Great question.  -jeff

Wishing good luck to all the great candidates this year.  You are all
rock stars in my mind.





On 2017-10-15 8:44 PM, Ravi Kumar wrote:

>
>
> Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to
> be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
> so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you
> wish to correct this..
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

jody.garnett
In reply to this post by jody.garnett
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

María Arias de Reyna-4
In reply to this post by Ravi Kumar-3
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Hi,

I don't know if you are following the current FOSS4G process to select the next venue. It turns out that I am proposing to host FOSS4G 2019 in Sevilla. So I have studied this very close recently. And Jeff is right, it is very difficult to find a cheap place where you can have so many people at the same time. Organizing a conference when you have more than 500 attendees is a huge step forward and requires a lot of investment in organization. Now we are getting closer to the 1500 attendees, can you imagine how difficult is to cut costs if we want to succeed?

It was Vasile (who is also competing with Bucarest as venue) who made the spreadsheet comparison about prices and the conclusion is that prices have been very stable among the years if you take inflation into consideration. Ok, we have had an economic depression in some countries and inflation is not the same worldwide. But prices are not getting so much higher as the general public perceives. I hope he can make this numbers public soon, as it was a very interesting spreadsheet about the evolution of FOSS4G.

Said this: we can try to make FOSS4G more affordable, and indeed we should. 
What would I do if I were on the board to get that? Well, if you take a look at the proposal I am chairing in Sevilla[1][2], you will see we are going to lower the prices, get more funds from the general budget for travel grants (and not only wait for people to donate) and also the venue is very cheap to stay at. Having countries that have problems travelling to FOSS4G close is also a good push, but that's not always possible.

I think travel grants are a really good thing to improve. But that also means having less surplus from FOSS4G, which is used for other events which are smaller and can be helpful to reach those who can't afford FOSS4G. How do we find balance here? 

Maybe the idea of everyone going to every FOSS4G is the problem. Having regional FOSS4G and smaller events is a good way to reach those who can't afford to travel (and not only for economic reasons). Of course I would like everyone to be able to travel to FOSS4G regularly, but I think that's not realistic. Taking a full week of holidays for it or making your company pay for your travel (if you have a job!) is not that easy even if you have the money. What about your family and people who depend on you? What about people who have political problems to travel? There is a lot of cases where travelling out of your country or more than a couple of days is a nightmare.

I would try to do both approaches: make FOSS4G more affordable with travel grants (who may not pay in all cases the full costs but maybe only part of it to reach more people?) and also reinforce the regional and local events. Lowering the general public cost of a FOSS4G is not as easy as it sounds as many things depends on the (not so big) surplus of FOSS4G.

This is a topic to discuss in more detail in the future.


Regards,
María.


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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Ravi Kumar-3
In reply to this post by jody.garnett
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett



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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Venkatesh Raghavan
Hi Ravi,

Thanks for the question and your suggestion below;

I have expressed my opinion in the conference and
board mailing list where this matter as been discussed
on several occasion.

I think there is still some scope for considering ways
and means to enhance affordability. Maybe by,

a) Alternating between business focused (big convention
center plus all the frills of a Tech Expo) and an R&D
focused (low cost venue, no-frills, low-cost-carrier model)

b) Have dual pricing for high-medium and low income
countries as was practiced in FOSS4G-2015

We have had some valuable inputs from chairs of our
previous event. The new board  should try to have a broader
feedback (Lime survey maybe?) from our charter members to
look for some innovative ways of handling the issue of affordability
of our global event.

Best

Venka

 

On 10/16/2017 3:59 PM, Ravi Kumar wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can
have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett [hidden email]
wrote:

Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

*'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
can afford it'*..

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
our most effective outreach event.

*costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne
event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home
city.

*If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f
meeting follow up
<https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/board/2017-August/010526.html>:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com>
wrote:

*I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
*volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
*work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
*wording and process.*

**Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
steer in?*

*My own feedback:*


*1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not **changed
significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*

*I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*

*2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is **growing.
I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
*around.*

*3) regional events are killing it*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
*growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*

*4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*

*There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot **here,
that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*

*While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic **world
to provide useful direction.*

*5) diversity*

*The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to
set a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During
foss4g I attended a **diversity presentation that advocated creating a
safe space.*

**Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.*

*Similar recommendations online include:*
*- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand*
*in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).*
*- providing child care (this helps families attend)*

*Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am
only **comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps
some of **these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.*

*6) time of year*

*The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the **way
of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this **has
affected how many of our contributors can attend.*

**Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors
who **can attend).*

*I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for **families
which is a cunning plan.*

*7) travel / accommodation*

*I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay **high
airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the **affordability
report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look **things up).*

**Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist *
*season).*


Followed by:

*> 5) diversity*

*On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking
the **needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee
consider **diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on
providing specific **advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a
whole is a diverse **body and may be in position to offer guidance.*

*I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to
trust **the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only
concern, not **perspective).*

*Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference **committee,
this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as **part of
the conference committee.*



The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in
extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked
me "*HOW do you wish to correct this" * the answer would be to join the
conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply
aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett [hidden email] wrote:

We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the
Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your
question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months,
especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own
conclusion.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar [hidden email]
wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to
be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you
wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Cameron Shorter

Hi Ravi,

I'd suggest change your question from "Board members, how will you make FOSS4G cheaper" to "Board members, how can you empower me to help make FOSS4G better?". And then follow up and get involved in the conference committee.

Cheers, Cameron

On 16/10/17 6:33 pm, Venkatesh Raghavan wrote:
Hi Ravi,

Thanks for the question and your suggestion below;

I have expressed my opinion in the conference and
board mailing list where this matter as been discussed
on several occasion.

I think there is still some scope for considering ways
and means to enhance affordability. Maybe by,

a) Alternating between business focused (big convention
center plus all the frills of a Tech Expo) and an R&D
focused (low cost venue, no-frills, low-cost-carrier model)

b) Have dual pricing for high-medium and low income
countries as was practiced in FOSS4G-2015

We have had some valuable inputs from chairs of our
previous event. The new board  should try to have a broader
feedback (Lime survey maybe?) from our charter members to
look for some innovative ways of handling the issue of affordability
of our global event.

Best

Venka

 

On 10/16/2017 3:59 PM, Ravi Kumar wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts
that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can
have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play
ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett [hidden email]
wrote:

Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really
appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

*'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who
can afford it'*..

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as
our most effective outreach event.

*costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. *

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne
event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home
city.

*If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...*

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is
my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f
meeting follow up
<https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/board/2017-August/010526.html>:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com>
wrote:

*I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have*
*volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to*
*work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP*
*wording and process.*

**Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we
as **the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to
steer in?*

*My own feedback:*


*1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not **changed
significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most **expensive
event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).*

*I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).*

*2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is **growing.
I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle **down
to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it *
*around.*

*3) regional events are killing it*

*I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is *
*growing. **The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global
event, allowing **it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.*

*4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)*

*There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot **here,
that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards **diversity.*

*While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic **world
to provide useful direction.*

*5) diversity*

*The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity
awareness **to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to
set a diversity **target which travel grant can help towards). During
foss4g I attended a **diversity presentation that advocated creating a
safe space.*

**Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.*

*Similar recommendations online include:*
*- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand*
*in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).*
*- providing child care (this helps families attend)*

*Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am
only **comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps
some of **these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.*

*6) time of year*

*The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the **way
of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this **has
affected how many of our contributors can attend.*

**Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors
who **can attend).*

*I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for **families
which is a cunning plan.*

*7) travel / accommodation*

*I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay **high
airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the **affordability
report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look **things up).*

**Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist *
*season).*


Followed by:

*> 5) diversity*

*On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking
the **needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee
consider **diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on
providing specific **advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a
whole is a diverse **body and may be in position to offer guidance.*

*I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to
trust **the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only
concern, not **perspective).*

*Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference **committee,
this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as **part of
the conference committee.*



The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in
extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked
me "*HOW do you wish to correct this" * the answer would be to join the
conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply
aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett [hidden email] wrote:

We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the
Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your
question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months,
especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own
conclusion.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar [hidden email]
wrote:

Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to
be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you
wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


        


_______________________________________________
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https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




_______________________________________________
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-- 
Cameron Shorter
Open Technologies Consultant
Geospatial & Software Architect
Information Demystifier

M +61 (0) 419 142 254
http://shorter.net

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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

stevenfeldman
In reply to this post by Ravi Kumar-3
Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints and other activities
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


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[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

jody.garnett
On 16 October 2017 at 07:15, Steven Feldman <[hidden email]> wrote:
The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

My was understanding is the conference committee is available for "annual foss4g conferences" - including regional foss4g events. Checking the wiki page the majority of the goals are indeed centred around the annual event, but the mandate to support regional events is there if the conference committee would like to meet it.

Ravi the conference committee has recently taken on responsibility for a global travel grant program to a support regional events, code sprints and the like. While this does not address affordability it does show a willingness (and ability) to help support regional events and is a good example of dividing up the work between local organizers and our global volunteers.

In a similar fashion the board has a procedure to support code sprints with initial funding (often used to secure a venue). OSGeo also offers to "backstop" an event so if it loses money the foundation (rather than the volunteers organizing) is in position to pay. These kind of gestures help take a lot of the pressure off local organizers and are a good example of how local events can be supported.
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Vicky Vergara-2
In reply to this post by stevenfeldman
Hello Ravi:

I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.

Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).

I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.


Vicky




On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints and other activities
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
Georepublic UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
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81739 München, Germany

Vicky Vergara
Operations Research

eMail: vicky@georepublic.de
Web: https://georepublic.info

Tel: +49 (089) 4161 7698-1
Fax: +49 (089) 4161 7698-9

Commercial register: Amtsgericht München, HRB 181428
CEO: Daniel Kastl


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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

jody.garnett
In reply to this post by Ravi Kumar-3
I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.

Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?

I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing open source can be!

As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.

Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.



--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Arnulf Christl

Folks,

if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then complain that they have left.

(Maybe to the disagreement of some) these kind of events function by making things shine and excel. This includes a great venue, great catering, inviting great paid speakers and award great awards at a great gala dinner. Yawn. How I hate those events! Plus they are costly! Plus I have to wear my (cat)suit! Yuck! But this is also why I always have worn a suit when it was required (especially on Star Trek Voyager). No, I do not consider myself a suit. But I wear one when it is required. There are aspects of Free Software and Open Source where a suit is a door opener. Condemn it, door closes.

The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already are doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and party and all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and attracts the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. Cannot afford it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and indirectly pay your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that?

Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes from? It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny (plus fun) FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for local code sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind jeopardize or even criticize an event that helps fund everything else we do?

Cheers,
Seven

(Founder, Charter Member, ex Director, President Emeritus of OSGeo and grumpy old ex Borg drone)


Am 16.10.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Jody Garnett:
I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.

Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?

I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing open source can be!

As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.

Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.



--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Marc Vloemans-3
+1
Without businesses no SLA's etc. for professional enduser organisations, who ultimate pay for developers as well as the 'parties'.
(Coming nog from a - black - suit ;-)

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


Op 16 okt. 2017 om 19:44 heeft Seven (aka Arnulf) <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:

Folks,

if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then complain that they have left.

(Maybe to the disagreement of some) these kind of events function by making things shine and excel. This includes a great venue, great catering, inviting great paid speakers and award great awards at a great gala dinner. Yawn. How I hate those events! Plus they are costly! Plus I have to wear my (cat)suit! Yuck! But this is also why I always have worn a suit when it was required (especially on Star Trek Voyager). No, I do not consider myself a suit. But I wear one when it is required. There are aspects of Free Software and Open Source where a suit is a door opener. Condemn it, door closes.

The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already are doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and party and all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and attracts the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. Cannot afford it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and indirectly pay your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that?

Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes from? It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny (plus fun) FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for local code sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind jeopardize or even criticize an event that helps fund everything else we do?

Cheers,
Seven

(Founder, Charter Member, ex Director, President Emeritus of OSGeo and grumpy old ex Borg drone)


Am 16.10.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Jody Garnett:
I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.

Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?

I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing open source can be!

As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.

Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.



--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett



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https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

stevenfeldman
In reply to this post by Arnulf Christl
Thanks Arnulf 

So so right

Steven
07958 924 101

On 16 Oct 2017, at 18:44, Seven (aka Arnulf) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Folks,

if we want to compete then we have to play the game. Party is great but the money is not in the party and fun part. The money sits in large corps and governments. Folks coming from there are not expected to party or hang out and have fun. They are expected to see the bleeding edge technology first hand, learn about the reliability of Open Source and Free Software licensing and learn about the leading businesses in that domain. Companies who choose to support FOSS4G with their sponsorship and come to the global big business FOSS4G industry event. Honor them. Honor those who organize those events. Consider paying them professional rates instead of burning them out and then complain that they have left.

(Maybe to the disagreement of some) these kind of events function by making things shine and excel. This includes a great venue, great catering, inviting great paid speakers and award great awards at a great gala dinner. Yawn. How I hate those events! Plus they are costly! Plus I have to wear my (cat)suit! Yuck! But this is also why I always have worn a suit when it was required (especially on Star Trek Voyager). No, I do not consider myself a suit. But I wear one when it is required. There are aspects of Free Software and Open Source where a suit is a door opener. Condemn it, door closes.

The good thing is, we do not have to stop anything. We can and we already are doing both. We have great local events and code sprints and fun and party and all. Plus we have a one time per year event that is expensive and attracts the money. Where is the problem? Don't like it? Then don't go. Cannot afford it? Then promote it so that those who can afford it go (and indirectly pay your pizza during the fun events). How cool is that?

Honestly, FOSS4G "global" should stay (or become even more of) an industry event. What do you think where the (admittedly tiny) OSGeo budget comes from? It is the surplus generated by well organized, efficient and shiny (plus fun) FOSS4Gs. This money is used to support the pizza and coffee for local code sprints. Why on earth would anybody in his or her right mind jeopardize or even criticize an event that helps fund everything else we do?

Cheers,
Seven

(Founder, Charter Member, ex Director, President Emeritus of OSGeo and grumpy old ex Borg drone)


Am 16.10.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Jody Garnett:
I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.

Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?

I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing open source can be!

As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.

Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.



--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Ravi Kumar-3
In reply to this post by Vicky Vergara-2
Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are following this thread,
+1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended by some, and Markus Netteler.
You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..

We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should never tire in Nudging the board with our views.

Another question to Contenders to the Board:
Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.

Cheers

Ravi Kumar

 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Ravi:

I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.

Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).

I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.


Vicky




On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints and other activities
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
Georepublic UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
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81739 München, Germany

Vicky Vergara
Operations Research

eMail: vicky@georepublic.de
Web: https://georepublic.info

Tel: +49 (089) 4161 7698-1
Fax: +49 (089) 4161 7698-9

Commercial register: Amtsgericht München, HRB 181428
CEO: Daniel Kastl


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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Ravi Kumar-3
In reply to this post by jody.garnett
Hi Jody and list,

"Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?"

I remember vividly.. The Year: 2007. The Event 'OSGeo India Launch'.. The Venue: Glittering International Convention Centre, Hyderabad(Novotel).
Being a Geologist, more used to the outdoors and field work, hobnobbing in a 5- star place, made me wear a Facade, 'A Tie, A Coat' (as Arnulf so anecdotally expressed in this thread). Venka, then, for me a Professor from Osaka City University, was there without a 'Tie'.. He went one step ahead, whispering to me.. In minutes I undid my tie.. and breathed easy..

About OSGeo's FOSS4G being a 'Stiff Upper Lip..  a Tie and Coat Event'.. OR 'a Hangout/Party event', where Developers and users in T-Shirts, develop networks in an atmosphere of bonhomie.. I am sure the list will vote a land slide victory for the Later than the former.

HOWEVER, I concede.

Like the Elephant (of PostGIS too), a pair of teeth to Show (off) ---------- Glittering Events
AND
A pair to actually chew and eat.. --------------------------------------------------- Bonhomie Events

A Cocktail might do the trick for us.. Let us bet on the Wisdom of the OSGeo Board with the new incumbents ..

Cheers and thanks to each one Jeff, Arnulf Venka and all for reacting

Ravi Kumar

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:25 PM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would like a chance to listen to everyone and avoid creating spits in our community, some of the most critical feedback received about foss4g affordability has been by companies. Our strength in part comes from bridging divides, a foss4g for business would not be a foss4g.

Ravi can I ask if you would like to have a "hangout" or "party" event?

I was surprised to encounter the viewpoint that foss4g it is considered an OSGeo party. While we have lots to celebrate, I view foss4g as a time when we can best meet our outreach goals. I tend to view this as a responsibility - the local organizing committee has specific brought us in to knock-the-socks off the local geospatial community and show them how amazing open source can be!

As a personal goal I am trying to be more relaxed about viewing OSGeo as a party, our community members are amazing should be celebrated and celebrating. It is one thing I really appreciated about the slower pace of this years foss4g-europe event, think it was the first time I got to see Andrea Amine slow down enough to talk to.

Thanks again for bringing interesting questions to this years elections.



--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 23:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

jody.garnett
In reply to this post by Ravi Kumar-3
I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry or academic event would sell it short.

While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
— -
Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater role our charter members can play?

In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you like to see charter members do?

Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a charter member.

While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the idea of member involvement even more.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are following this thread,
+1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended by some, and Markus Netteler.
You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..

We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should never tire in Nudging the board with our views.

Another question to Contenders to the Board:
Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.

Cheers

Ravi Kumar

 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Ravi:

I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.

Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).

I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.


Vicky




On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints and other activities
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
Georepublic UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Salzmannstraße 44, 
81739 München, Germany

Vicky Vergara
Operations Research

eMail: vicky@georepublic.de
Web: https://georepublic.info

Tel: +49 (089) 4161 7698-1
Fax: +49 (089) 4161 7698-9

Commercial register: Amtsgericht München, HRB 181428
CEO: Daniel Kastl


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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|

Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Ravi Kumar-3
+1 for...... I like the idea of member involvement even more.
Ravi

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry or academic event would sell it short.

While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
— -
Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater role our charter members can play?

In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you like to see charter members do?

Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a charter member.

While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the idea of member involvement even more.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are following this thread,
+1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended by some, and Markus Netteler.
You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..

We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should never tire in Nudging the board with our views.

Another question to Contenders to the Board:
Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.

Cheers

Ravi Kumar

 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Ravi:

I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.

Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).

I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.


Vicky




On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints and other activities
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
Georepublic UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Salzmannstraße 44, 
81739 München, Germany

Vicky Vergara
Operations Research

eMail: vicky@georepublic.de
Web: https://georepublic.info

Tel: +49 (089) 4161 7698-1
Fax: +49 (089) 4161 7698-9

Commercial register: Amtsgericht München, HRB 181428
CEO: Daniel Kastl


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
--
Jody Garnett


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Costly FOSS4Gs

Ravi Kumar-3
In reply to this post by jody.garnett
Hi Jody,

"While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the idea of member involvement even more."

How do you wish to realize this.
Do you think that 'Charter member' vs 'Ordinary Lister/User/Member'.. the later merits more..
THEN
Why bother and have a special classification as 'Charter Member'...

Cheers
Ravi Kumar

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline. FOSS4G is a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a great creative melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g to just an industry or academic event would sell it short.

While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another source of funds taking pressure off the conference committee and freeing the organization to use the event more effectively for advocacy.
— -
Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what greater role our charter members can play?

In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what would you like to see charter members do?

Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By stepping up as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing to take on responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no requirement to be a charter member.

While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the idea of member involvement even more.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are following this thread,
+1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006) attended by some, and Markus Netteler.
You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..

We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter should never tire in Nudging the board with our views.

Another question to Contenders to the Board:
Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important role than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.

Cheers

Ravi Kumar

 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Ravi:

I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo, with the international event and with the local event.

Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC mentor summit representing OSGeo.

This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to meet some OSGeo member(s).

I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it: subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going to the small FOSS4G events after the first one where I learned so much. If you think about it, by not going to the international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have been spreading the word to the people that can not afford the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel grant, can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.


Vicky




On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ravi

This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in the last years or even of the attendees who are able to afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?

I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This discussion has gone round the conference, board and discuss lists for several years. If we want a large event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur. 

The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence presented to support the idea that local and regional events need funding from the centre but if a case can be made then the board should give that consideration and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference committee

Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach, code sprints and other activities
______
Steven


On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi List,
happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable', is discussed.
To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..

May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business, where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for OSGeo.
Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young students/Reserchers can have a great conference.

 Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star.. Next two affordable.
But in a world where, 'COST some times means Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.

Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls

Ravi Kumar


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Okay I checked that the report is not published yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer, and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing great success and are much more affordable.

To answer your question:

'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. 

I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I continue to view it as our most effective outreach event.

costs (of participation) are  so high that many might not afford.. 

I very much agree with this, indeed I was only able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I have tried to return the favour each time the event took place in my home city.

If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this...

This is a tricky one, in part because I do not have to imagine - here is my own recommendation from the [hidden email] email list thread: f2f meeting follow up:

On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> wrote:

I saw this thread get into the details of the RFP - for that we have
volunteers on the conference committee. My goal as a board member is to
work on strategy, as the conference committee knows best about the RFP
wording and process.

*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and resulting discussion, did we as the board have any direction to ask the conference committee to steer in?

My own feedback:

1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket cost of foss4g has not changed significantly over the course of the events (indeed our most expensive event was Sydney and our cheapest Korea).

I do not see any guidance to provide here (this was surprising to me).

2) Attendance continues to increase limiting appropriate venues

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and event is growing. I think once we get around 3000 people we may be forced to settle down to consider a fixed location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move it around.

3) regional events are killing it

I do not see any guidence to provide here, our community and events is growing. The hope is this takes some of the strain from the global event, allowing it to focus on outreach and advocacy more.

4) hard for students to attend (also journal, etc...)

There was a strong hope that travel grant program could help out a lot here, that would make me sad as this was intended to work towards diversity.

While there may be guidance here I am not close enough to the academic world to provide useful direction.

5) diversity

The original intention of the travel grant was to bring diversity awareness to our osgeo events (to apply regional events are asked to set a diversity target which travel grant can help towards). During foss4g I attended a diversity presentation that advocated creating a safe space.

*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe space in the 2018 bid.

Similar recommendations online include:
- make female speakers a priority (not just in selection, but before hand
in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...).
- providing child care (this helps families attend)

Since these haver not been advocated by members of our community I am only comfortable providing guidance on providing a safe space. Perhaps some of these ideas can be tried out at regional conferences first.

6) time of year

The events have moved from September/October to August placing it in the way of European holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in Europe this has affected how many of our contributors can attend.

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to maximize contributors who can attend).

I understand next years event has plans to turn this into a holiday for families which is a cunning plan.

7) travel / accommodation

I would like to avoid prime tourist season to avoid asking attendees pay high airfair and accommodation costs. We did not have the number in the affordability report to back this up (but Michael Smith was going to look things up).

*Guidance: *Request September / October event (to avoid peak tourist season).

Followed by:

> 5) diversity

On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable offering guidance here - lacking the needed perspective. I would ask that the conference committee consider diversity as a selection criteria, but would hold off on providing specific advice listed above. I recognize that the board as a whole is a diverse body and may be in position to offer guidance.

I just don't think it is my place either as a board member (need to trust the marketing committee) or as a white male (can offer only concern, not perspective).

Aside: This whole discussion has increased my respect for the conference committee, this is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute positively as part of the conference committee.


The thing to note is that as a board member we can offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked me "HOW do you wish to correct this"  the answer would be to join the conference committe and help out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.

The conference committee has my trust, and as I understand they are deeply aware and concerned about this issue.
--
Jody Garnett

On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett <[hidden email]> wrote:
We actually have solid numbers for this, a report was provided at the Boston meeting that kind of answers this to my satisfaction.

I was waiting for it to be shared with the membership, since your question was one I have been asked repeatedly over the last six months, especially at foss4ge.

I would really like you to be able to read the report and reach your own conclusion. 

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar <[hidden email]> wrote:


Question  (would be Board).  'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout for those who can afford it'.. costs (of participation) are
so high that many might not afford.. If selected to the board HOW do you wish to correct this..

Ravi Kumar
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