Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

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Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Hi,

I have been looking into the Portuguese translations of the GUI and the Docs, and I got really scared. Many translations were done completely out of context, making it very hard to read or understand what was originally written in English, even if you are familiar with the terminology.

I don't know how other languages are going, and if you face the same problems. In Portugal, we have a very small community. Because of that, translation efforts are not really coordinated or even reviewed in most cases.

Now, the biggest problem is that I think this deeply affects QGIS credibility. When you install QGIS, it defaults to the machine's locale, and many users don't even know how to change it (seen it in several courses). This means that many people will only know the badly translated version of QGIS in their native language... and It looks bad.

In training, people sometimes make fun of the translations. I always enforce the idea that the translation work is fully done by volunteers in their spare time, but I am afraid if for some people it just looks like the full application was done by volunteers and hobbyists.

So, I wanted to know if more of you face the same issues. If so, would it be wiser to default the language always to English and let the user find out how to change to his language if he wants to?

Thanks,

Alexandre Neto

PS: Sorry for the cross-posting



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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Hi,

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:38 PM Nyall Dawson <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
What about a predefined allow list of "high quality translations"? And
we'd only default to using the local language IF it's part of this
predefined list...

That would be a nice idea if we can ensure that there are enough native speakers available for doing the reviews and confirm that a certain language is ok to go. It's a really hard job, and it's always on the move. But, yes, maybe an overall appreciation could be enough to get the stamp of quality.
 
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:42 PM Luigi Pirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
As far as I know, the italian translation suffer the same problem, not about quality, but about resources to give continuity to translation work. Spanish community, instead, is more focused in translations (different official languages) than in features or bugfixing.

Please notice that my worries are not the lack of translation of many strings, that is kind of ok to me. The problem are the badly translated ones.

The move to transifex made the translations available to many more translators, and we got more strings translated, but... while the QtLinguist translations had in some cases the GUI as context, transifex doesn't. 

Besides, at least in Portuguese, some people are more worried in quantity than in quality. Unfortunately, Transifex don't make it easy to find all the translation done by a bad translator... at least that I know of.

Alex


Nyall
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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

ghtmtt
In reply to this post by Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

Hi all,

thanks Alexandre for raising the issue. As you pointed out the problem
of wrong translations is in 99% the wrong context and this is a limit of
tx (AFAIK).

In Italy, as explained by Stefano, we have a lot of translators but just
a few are active. What we decided is to block "random" translation by
enforcing the review process (maintained by Stefano).

We are lucky that we have at least one person that is carrying out a
strong review process so that it is really less possible to have big errors.

Given that translation is a almost 100% volunteer work I can understand
that it can be hard to find a reviewer.

Cheers

Matteo
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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

jhelebrant
In reply to this post by Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Hi,

there might be two issues:


1) people wanting to help and translating without having enough information about particular string - what does that tool do, established terminology etc. - this would be biggest issue but I do not remember facing this problem with QGIS Czech/English translations. (but I faced this with Scidavis for example)


2) smaller issues - in some languages you need to check the particular menus / dialog windows in QGIS to check you translation is in proper form (but this mostly does not make that translation useless - just "ugly" looking) and various typos.


As other colleagues already mentioned - poor translation is still better than „no translation“ for many users (who do not speak English) although it doesn't look very professional.


I am using QGIS both in English and in Czech so sometimes I stop my work and open Transifex to correct some typo or „not so good“ translation so the quality should improve in time.


I hope bad translation does not discourage users from using the program. I also asked people using QGIS in some institutions like „if you know some translations are stupid please let me know via email and suggest better one“ so they do not need to join the team and learn to use Transifex (although it is a lot easier than Qt Linguist).


it just looks like the full application was done by volunteers and hobbyists“


I hope that this perception will change – remember times when suggesting use of OpenStreetMap resulted in contemptuous comment like „yeah, those hobby maps“ and today several government organizations are using OSM data.


regards


Jan


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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

rodrigo
In reply to this post by Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Hi, I am trying to help you to translate de QGIS documentation, but i have some questions:

  1. How can I find the address of the web page that I am translating?.
  2. When I am translating a page, where guideline appears, should I translate what will appear on the page tag?

 

Thanks for all.

Rodri A.Baztán


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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Rodrigo,


Thanks

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:46 PM rodrigo <[hidden email]> wrote:
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

Hi, I am trying to help you to translate de QGIS documentation, but i have some questions:

  1. How can I find the address of the web page that I am translating?.
  2. When I am translating a page, where guideline appears, should I translate what will appear on the page tag?

 

Thanks for all.

Rodri A.Baztán

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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

rodrigo
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Thanks, i found what i’m looking for.

 

Enviado desde Correo para Windows 10

 

De: [hidden email]
Enviado: martes, 30 de junio de 2020 18:11
Para: [hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [Qgis-tr] Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

 

Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

 


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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Jürgen E. Fischer
In reply to this post by Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Hi Alexandre,

On Mon, 29. Jun 2020 at 23:20:01 +0100, Alexandre Neto wrote:
> I have been looking into the Portuguese translations of the GUI and the
> Docs, and I got really scared. Many translations were done completely out
> of context, making it very hard to read or understand what was
> originally written in English, even if you are familiar with the
> terminology.

Is that a long standing issue?   I would have expected the portuguese
translation to be in better shape.

I didn't hear complaining - or maybe just missed it, because I couldn't help
with portuguese anyway.

How does the brasilian portuguese translation compare?   I don't know how
different the two are.


Jürgen

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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/




A terça, 30/06/2020, 17:49, Jürgen E. Fischer <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

Hi Alexandre,

On Mon, 29. Jun 2020 at 23:20:01 +0100, Alexandre Neto wrote:
> I have been looking into the Portuguese translations of the GUI and the
> Docs, and I got really scared. Many translations were done completely out
> of context, making it very hard to read or understand what was
> originally written in English, even if you are familiar with the
> terminology.

Is that a long standing issue?   I would have expected the portuguese
translation to be in better shape.

It's just some terms that are really bad translated. For example, the english verbs are quite simple, just a few conjunctions, in Portuguese the same English version can have many different outcomes and meanings if not in context.


I didn't hear complaining - or maybe just missed it, because I couldn't help
with portuguese anyway.

You don't see people complaining in the open. Like I said I hear it in training courses only.


How does the brasilian portuguese translation compare?   I don't know how
different the two are.

Not sure about how their work is going. We use very different technical terms. Sometimes it's quite hard to understand. So, there's no way we can unite the languages or work together.


Thanks,

Alexandre Neto


Jürgen

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Osman Yalçın YILMAZ
In reply to this post by Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


Dear all,
I think, like other friends, bad translation will affect the use of QGIS. In the courses I gave, I also had the complaints mentioned here. As stated, I found a solution to this issue, which is difficult to solve since this is a voluntary job. Giving the language file (qgis_tr.qm) that I have translated to my own lecturers and asking them to copy it to the appropriate folder. Because there really are some serious mistakes and inconsistencies. Rather than personalizing the issue and complaining and gossiping, it was appropriate for me to go through such a solution.
 With this excuse, I would also like to ask this. Is there a solution to prevent worse problems like this that can be caused by the translation of people who are not well-intentioned? Is every volunteer accepted to develop source code? Of course, we cannot keep the translation with source code development. However, the translation provides an understanding of the software developed by the user in his own language. My humble suggestion is this; is to look at the documents showing that the translators work on this subject. For example, if he works at the university, whether he uses QGIS in his publications and lectures. If he is working in the sector, whether he uses QGIS in his projects.
Let me add and finish a subject that I need to specify. Is there anything to consider for translations under "QgsExpression"? A rather dangerous section for translation.
Best regards,

Alexandre Neto <[hidden email]>, 1 Tem 2020 Çar, 00:52 tarihinde şunu yazdı:
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

Hi,

A terça, 30/06/2020, 18:34, Raymond Nijssen <[hidden email]> escreveu:

On 30-06-2020 18:26, Andreas Neumann wrote:
> That probably depends on the topography and ruggedness in your country
> ;-) in german language we have translations for these terms:
>
> "Analytische Schattierung" or "Schummerung" and "Rauhigkeitsindex".

But we have 40 words for 'flat' Andreas! :P


Same problem for the Dutch language, some translations are too literally
and usually really funny but not helpful at all if you want to
understand QGIS.
I often tell people in my course to consider using English. It is not
just more clear and accurate, but also easier when you need to google
your way around in QGIS. Googling for 'uitdrukking voor mazen berekenen'
will not give you many QGIS related results.

I do the same.

I like the idea of installing English by default, or better, let the
user choose during or right after installation. This way it is a more
conscious choice.

That would definitely be the best option.

I also like the idea of having a .tr_ignore list with terminology that
should not be translated. But it will indeed be different for every
language. So maybe local dk_ignore, nl_ignore, de_ignore? Maintained by
the local translation teams?

In the Portuguese team, what we are thinking to do is add some terminology to transifex glossary with the english source as the final translation, forcing translator not to change those.


Recently I was translating Input on transifex and was pleased by the
screen shots they added. They gave me a lot of context and I'm sure they
made my translations more accurate. Could we use that in QGIS as well?

I believe that's a paid functionality, not sure we can do it. But yes, that would help a lot. Although, its still probably hard to maintain for QGIS GUI, because it has so many dialogs.


And a bout the laughing people during courses, just tell them they can
fix it themselves and are very welcome to. Then they usually turn very
quiet.

Me too.

Maybe I am overreacting, my biggest worry is that some folks use the "funny" translations as an excuse to say that QGIS is not a professional software.

Alex



Regards,
Raymond
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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Ari Jolma-2
In reply to this post by Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

Alexandre Neto kirjoitti 30.6.2020 klo 1.20:
>
> So, I wanted to know if more of you face the same issues. If so, would
> it be wiser to default the language always to English and let the user
> find out how to change to his language if he wants to?
>
Would it be possible to have two (or more) languages installed, like the
native and English, so it would be easy to select and switch between the
two? I'm not 100 % sure but I don't think it is now possible to switch
between languages easily.

I think the default should be the default of the system, like I get the
Finnish version as I have Finnish as the default language in my Linux.

That would also help translations. I help the Finnish translation
occasionally and it really is difficult sometimes without context.

I think the Finnish version was more or less unusable some years ago and
bad for the overall credibility of QGIS but is now better and quite
credible IMO. I think the Finnish version is used professionally - i.e.,
companies sell projects that use it for customers that will use the
Finnish version. But I also hear that more advanced users still prefer
the English version.

Best regards,

Ari


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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

macho
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/

Hi,

A lot of things were already suggested, so I wanted to add my workflow.
I do it like many others here. Whenever I see a wrong translation I
open transifex, search for the wrong translation and directly change
it on the fly in transifex. (first looking in current master/main, if
it is already corrected for future versions, and then looking in the
version where I found it).

As for the question from Ari: QGIS comes preinstalled with all
languages that reached 30% of translation in transifex (whether this
is a quality criterium or not is another question, but at least it is
a hurdle so that switching to another language really means you see at
least something translated). You only have to switch the language in
the properties "Settings -> Options -> General -> Override System
Locale -> Select language in dropdown".

Regarding Input and Screenshots: Yes you can add Screenshots as visual
to transifex, but only in the paid version.

And the last point from my side: You can Download the translation file
from transifex and use linguist for translation as you were used to
before the switch to transifex, so there is not much change here.
That way you might also be able to see the context if you have the
source (of the correct version of QGIS) available.

Regarding the "wrong" translations, well.. The more people work on it
the more "mistakes" will happen.
Telling people that they can easily fix any wrong translation they see
in their interface is IMHO the right way.. that's why we choose
transifex with its easy web-based translation capabilities.
That's what opensource is about - everybody can contribute. Before
using energy to complain about wrong translation - use the same energy
to just silently fix it :)

As already said I see some advantages in defaulting to english, but we
should make it easy for people to switch to their native langauge
(with a warning, that it might not always be good translated and even
more with the hint that they can change possible mistakes easily on
transifex.

regards
Werner

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 7:39 AM Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/
>
> Alexandre Neto kirjoitti 30.6.2020 klo 1.20:
> >
> > So, I wanted to know if more of you face the same issues. If so, would
> > it be wiser to default the language always to English and let the user
> > find out how to change to his language if he wants to?
> >
> Would it be possible to have two (or more) languages installed, like the
> native and English, so it would be easy to select and switch between the
> two? I'm not 100 % sure but I don't think it is now possible to switch
> between languages easily.
>
> I think the default should be the default of the system, like I get the
> Finnish version as I have Finnish as the default language in my Linux.
>
> That would also help translations. I help the Finnish translation
> occasionally and it really is difficult sometimes without context.
>
> I think the Finnish version was more or less unusable some years ago and
> bad for the overall credibility of QGIS but is now better and quite
> credible IMO. I think the Finnish version is used professionally - i.e.,
> companies sell projects that use it for customers that will use the
> Finnish version. But I also hear that more advanced users still prefer
> the English version.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ari
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-tr
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Re: Concerns about translations and QGIS overall credibility

Alexandre Neto
Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/


+

A quarta, 1/07/2020, 12:09, Werner Macho <[hidden email]> escreveu:

As already said I see some advantages in defaulting to english, but we
should make it easy for people to switch to their native langauge
(with a warning, that it might not always be good translated and even
more with the hint that they can change possible mistakes easily on
transifex.

+1

Maybe a dialog in the first launch of qgis, stating that a translation for the system locale is available, with instructions to changing it and a warning about the volunteer work, and also where it can be improved?


Alexandre Neto

regards
Werner

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 7:39 AM Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Transifex Webtranslation page for QGIS is on https://www.transifex.com/qgis/
>
> Alexandre Neto kirjoitti 30.6.2020 klo 1.20:
> >
> > So, I wanted to know if more of you face the same issues. If so, would
> > it be wiser to default the language always to English and let the user
> > find out how to change to his language if he wants to?
> >
> Would it be possible to have two (or more) languages installed, like the
> native and English, so it would be easy to select and switch between the
> two? I'm not 100 % sure but I don't think it is now possible to switch
> between languages easily.
>
> I think the default should be the default of the system, like I get the
> Finnish version as I have Finnish as the default language in my Linux.
>
> That would also help translations. I help the Finnish translation
> occasionally and it really is difficult sometimes without context.
>
> I think the Finnish version was more or less unusable some years ago and
> bad for the overall credibility of QGIS but is now better and quite
> credible IMO. I think the Finnish version is used professionally - i.e.,
> companies sell projects that use it for customers that will use the
> Finnish version. But I also hear that more advanced users still prefer
> the English version.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ari
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> QGIS-Translators mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-tr
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