Code of Conduct in Real Case

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Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Jo Cook
Hi Sanghee,

My personal opinion (as a female member of OSGeo) is that these slides are certainly NOT offensive to women. From your description, they are being used in context and there should be no problems with that.

Jo

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18 7RL, UK
t:+44 7930 524 155

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Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no. 864201149.

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses-2
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Hello Sanghee,

> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

* Who asked to remove the slides?

* Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?

On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

But this is just my POV.

Best regards,
--
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
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Re: [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Jeroen Ticheler - GeoCat
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Dear Sanghee,

In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)?

;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects.

The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others.

Cheers,
Jeroen

> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

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Re: [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Baumann, Peter
+1
-Peter


On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote:

> Dear Sanghee,
>
> In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)?
>
> ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects.
>
> The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others.
>
> Cheers,
> Jeroen
>
>> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>
>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>
>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>
>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>
>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>
>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>
>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sanghee
>>
>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>> ---
>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>> Twitter: @foss4g
>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>> email: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Conference_dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

--
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: [hidden email]
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: [hidden email]
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Gert-Jan
In my opinion as well there is not a problem, especially since both pictures are used within a certain context.
However, I realize I'm looking through a Western-european, liberal cultural perspective.

Perhaps someone from for instance the Senegal local OSGeo chapter can comment on this from a different cultural point of view?


Regards,

Gert-Jan


 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Namens Peter Baumann
Verzonden: woensdag 24 juni 2015 13:12
Aan: Jeroen Ticheler; Sanghee Shin
CC: OSGeo Discussions; Conference Dev
Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case

+1
-Peter


On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote:

> Dear Sanghee,
>
> In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)?
>
> ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects.
>
> The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others.
>
> Cheers,
> Jeroen
>
>> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>
>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>
>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>
>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>
>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>
>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>
>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
>> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sanghee
>>
>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>> ---
>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G
>> Bigbang from Seoul!"
>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>> Twitter: @foss4g
>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>> email: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Conference_dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

--
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: [hidden email]
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: [hidden email]
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 "Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)


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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Charlie Schweik
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to GeoForAll. 

By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.

From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in. 

Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what they represent better than they do currently. 

I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees.

I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to recruit people to our global conference. 

It appears that others disagree with this view. 

Charlie Schweik 
  

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Sanghee,

> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

* Who asked to remove the slides?

* Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?

On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

But this is just my POV.

Best regards,
--
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
Charlie Schweik

Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration


Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545

--------------------------------------------
Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Bart van den Eijnden (OSGIS)-2
Hi Charlie,

I actually get your point of view, and tend to agree with it.

Best regards,
Bart

On 24 Jun 2015, at 13:42, Charles Schweik <[hidden email]> wrote:

OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to GeoForAll. 

By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.

From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in. 

Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what they represent better than they do currently. 

I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees.

I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to recruit people to our global conference. 

It appears that others disagree with this view. 

Charlie Schweik 
  

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Sanghee,

> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

* Who asked to remove the slides?

* Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?

On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

But this is just my POV.

Best regards,
--
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
Charlie Schweik

Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration


Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545

--------------------------------------------
Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

jmckenna
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not enough,
there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
to all reports)

I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
statement.

I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
move forward, or not at all.

-jeff


--
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: [hidden email]
>
>
>
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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Milo van der Linden-5
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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tel: +31-6-16598808

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses-2
In reply to this post by Charlie Schweik
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Charles Schweik
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those
> slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think
> those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and
> that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have
> been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things
> happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to
> this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.
>
> From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't)
> why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more
> careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the
> first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second
> picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is
> far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps
> that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned
> off to the conference by that zoom-in.


Sorry for being to much direct on this.

A man, thinking as a man, thinking on what a woman, thinking as a
woman, could-possibly-may-be-in-some-case found something offensive.

May be I'm also a Wester-Europen-Liberal-Minded (as Gert-Jan stated)
but I don't get the point of someone in Massachusetts «patrolling» the
thoughts of other woman, and we're not even discussing here a cultural
difference, just a genre difference.

Sorry, again, but I don't get it.

--
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Valencia (España)
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Re: [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Even Rouault-2
In reply to this post by Gert-Jan
Le mercredi 24 juin 2015 13:29:43, Gert-Jan van der Weijden - Stichting
OSGeo.nl a écrit :
> In my opinion as well there is not a problem, especially since both
> pictures are used within a certain context. However, I realize I'm looking
> through a Western-european, liberal cultural perspective.
>
> Perhaps someone from for instance the Senegal local OSGeo chapter can
> comment on this from a different cultural point of view?
>

This is tricky. I'm afraid that If you take the lowest common denominator of
all cultures of the world, you will be able to do little (what is polite in a
culture might be rude in another one, and vice versa). I think that people
going to a foreign country should be ready to face things that might not be
accepted in their own country/culture and deal with it. The only clear red
line is that you can never force someone from doing something he doesn't want
to.

There can also have "marketing" considerations into account. If one wants to
target an audience from a certain culture, then adjusting your way of behaving
to it might be a good choice (but might deter others...)

That said, I'm a bit like Pedro-Juan when looking at the slides. Not shoked,
but wondering "why this painting ? (is it exhibited in Seoul?), why this group
of women ?" when seeing them, because not familiar enough with Seoul/South
Korea

Looking further in the slides I can also see pictures of beverages, some of
them I suspect might contain alcohool. I guess that could make some people
unconfortable too...

In the code of conduct, it is mentionned "assume good intentions", so I'd say
let's do it for the LOC and let them do their job in peace.

Even

>
> Regards,
>
> Gert-Jan
>
>
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Namens Peter Baumann Verzonden:
> woensdag 24 juni 2015 13:12
> Aan: Jeroen Ticheler; Sanghee Shin
> CC: OSGeo Discussions; Conference Dev
> Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Conf] Code of Conduct in Real Case
>
> +1
> -Peter
>
> On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote:
> > Dear Sanghee,
> >
> > In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a
> > couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated,
> > generalizing men as nerds)?
> >
> > ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I
> > think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove
> > art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with
> > bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal
> > with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our
> > community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people
> > that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate
> > in FOSS projects.
> >
> > The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo
> > board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be
> > useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work
> > towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jeroen
> >
> >> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear All,
> >>
> >> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
> >>
> >> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why
> >> you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
> >> FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to
> >> say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female
> >> models) are those controversial ones.
> >>
> >> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
> >> presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
> >>
> >> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those
> >> slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better
> >> discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
> >>
> >> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this
> >> from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input
> >> as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
> >>
> >> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
> >> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to
> >> learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
> >>
> >> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> >> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
> >> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> >> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
> >> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
> >> Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Sanghee
> >>
> >> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> >> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> >> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> >> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> >> ---
> >> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G
> >> Bigbang from Seoul!"
> >> http://2015.foss4g.org
> >> Twitter: @foss4g
> >> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> >> email: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Conference_dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Conference_dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>
> --
> Dr. Peter Baumann
>  - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
>    www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
>    mail: [hidden email]
>    tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
>  - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
>    www.rasdaman.com, mail: [hidden email]
>    tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882 "Si
> forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis
> dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata,
> nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

margherita
In reply to this post by Milo van der Linden-5
Hi,

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!


looking at the presentation, I got exactly the same feeling as expressed so well by Milo. Personally, I don't feel offended by this presentation as a woman. However, due probably to my limitations, I don't get the messages that you (Sanghee) meant to deliver, otherwise than the one expressed by Milo. I support the idea that, due to the prominent placing of your presentation, it is extremely important that the message conveyed is agreed upon by the majority of the community, because somehow it does represent not only your personal view, but the shared view of the community.
re to Jeroen: I don't think that the CoC itself caused the rising of this issue, on the contrary, it formalized a statement of how the majority of the community thinks it is right to behave... I think it is there to help, not to create problems..

just my 2 cents



--
Best regards,

Dr. Margherita DI LEO    
Scientific / technical project officer

European Commission - DG JRC 
Institute for Environment and Sustainability (IES)
Via Fermi, 2749
I-21027 Ispra (VA) - Italy - TP 261
       
Tel. +39 0332 78 3600   

Disclaimer: The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may not in any circumstance be regarded as stating an official position of the European Commission.

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Re: [Board] Fwd: Code of Conduct in Real Case

jmckenna
Administrator
In reply to this post by jmckenna
Hi Bart,

Yup I fully agree, I was explaining to those passionate about this of
the Board meeting date, how to ask the Board, I even created a wiki page
for the committee, etc, but those interested got quiet (I can't push
everything).  There currently isn't a method to discuss, so this was
offline, but hopefully my public push that you mentioned, will give
everyone the deadline they need.

(by the way, yes I'm keeping my response to only 1 list)

-jeff



On 2015-06-24 9:27 AM, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:

> Hey Jeff,
>
> if you truly feel this way, please put forward a motion on the next board meeting. This needs to be decided by the board as a whole I guess.
>
> Personally I’m not in favour of destroying all that good work, but I also understand the need to move forward. Where are those discussions happening right now?
>
> Best regards,
> Bart
>
>> I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
>> of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
>> from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
>> statement.
>>
>> I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
>> move forward, or not at all.
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff McKenna
>> President, OSGeo
>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>>
>>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>>
>>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>>
>>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>>
>>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>>
>>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>>
>>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Sanghee
>>>
>>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
>>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>>> ---
>>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>>> Twitter: @foss4g
>>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>>> email: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
In reply to this post by Milo van der Linden-5
Dear All, 

One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. 

If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. 

I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 

I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015



2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> 작성:

Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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--
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web: dogodigi
tel: +31-6-16598808


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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Massimiliano Cannata
Just my 0.0002 cents,

I feel things are getting over complicated.

We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community.

Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D

My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules.

Maxi







2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All, 

One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. 

If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. 

I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 

I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015



2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> 작성:

Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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web: dogodigi
tel: +31-6-16598808


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Responsabile settore Geomatica


Istituto scienze della Terra

Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design

Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana

Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio

Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14

Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09

[hidden email]

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Iván Sánchez Ortega
In reply to this post by Charlie Schweik
El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
> [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off
> who are considering attending and I think [...]

I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent
case of "the limits of joking" in Spanish media.

Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a
terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media "I'm sure B
finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job"[1]. Then, person B
jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at
all[2].

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
[2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


In other words: Saying "Person A should take this down because I find it
offensive" is perfectly OK. Saying "Person A should take this down because it
is possibly potentially offensive to a third party" is not OK (and actually
erodes the right to freedom of expression).


I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference
between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting
*actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will
illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to
eleven for a second:

Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially
offensive to muslims and vegans.

Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make
the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential
triggers for agoraphobics.

Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to
astronomers concerned by light pollution.

Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to
"grammar nazis".

I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find
"nazis" offensive.

Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to
geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by
EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not representative of
the professionalism required to attend such an event.

Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential
trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially offensive
to alcoholics and former alcoholics.


</rant>

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Charlie Schweik
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
(I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):

This isn't a COC issue. 

This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue, representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured the confusion I had over messaging better than I did. 

Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models sequence.

Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.

Charlie Schweik

 





On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just my 0.0002 cents,

I feel things are getting over complicated.

We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community.

Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D

My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules.

Maxi







2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All, 

One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. 

If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. 

I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 

I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015



2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> 작성:

Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--
http://www.dogodigi.net
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web: dogodigi
tel: <a href="tel:%2B31-6-16598808" value="+31616598808" target="_blank">+31-6-16598808


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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--
Massimiliano Cannata

Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica

Responsabile settore Geomatica


Istituto scienze della Terra

Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design

Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana

Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio

Tel. <a href="tel:%2B41%20%280%2958%20666%2062%2014" value="+41586666214" target="_blank">+41 (0)58 666 62 14

Fax <a href="tel:%2B41%20%280%2958%20666%2062%2009" value="+41586666209" target="_blank">+41 (0)58 666 62 09

[hidden email]

www.supsi.ch/ist


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Charlie Schweik

Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration


Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545

--------------------------------------------
Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Milo van der Linden-5
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega

Hahaha!

I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population is potentially still "on board" at the final slide. This will give a clear insight of how many people will come to the event. ;-)

On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, "Iván Sánchez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
> [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off
> who are considering attending and I think [...]

I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent
case of "the limits of joking" in Spanish media.

Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a
terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media "I'm sure B
finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job"[1]. Then, person B
jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at
all[2].

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
[2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


In other words: Saying "Person A should take this down because I find it
offensive" is perfectly OK. Saying "Person A should take this down because it
is possibly potentially offensive to a third party" is not OK (and actually
erodes the right to freedom of expression).


I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference
between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting
*actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will
illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to
eleven for a second:

Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially
offensive to muslims and vegans.

Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make
the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential
triggers for agoraphobics.

Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to
astronomers concerned by light pollution.

Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to
"grammar nazis".

I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find
"nazis" offensive.

Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to
geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by
EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not representative of
the professionalism required to attend such an event.

Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential
trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially offensive
to alcoholics and former alcoholics.


</rant>

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
In reply to this post by Charlie Schweik

Dear Charles,

I understand your real intention now. Just like you mentioned, it's not the issue of CoC. That's me who links this with CoC. And I myself brought this to the public discussion since I felt I could be wrong and this might be the matter of CoC. We should have discussed this earlier in private first.

Thanks for your care.

Sanghee

2015. 6. 24. 오후 2:54에 "Charles Schweik" <[hidden email]>님이 작성:
>
> (I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):
>
> This isn't a COC issue. 
>
> This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue, representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured the confusion I had over messaging better than I did. 
>
> Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models sequence.
>
> Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.
>
> Charlie Schweik
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Just my 0.0002 cents,
>>
>> I feel things are getting over complicated.
>>
>> We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
>> Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community.
>>
>> Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D
>>
>> My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules.
>>
>> Maxi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Dear All, 
>>>
>>> One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. 
>>>
>>> If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. 
>>>
>>> I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 
>>>
>>> I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 
>>>
>>> All the best, 
>>>
>>> Sanghee
>>> ---
>>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
>>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>>> Twitter: @foss4g
>>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>>> email: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> 작성:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sanghee,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.
>>>>
>>>> 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".
>>>>
>>>> 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
>>>>
>>>> Final thought:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
>>>>
>>>> So thank you for that!
>>>>
>>>> With respect, kind regards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>>>>
>>>>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>>>>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>>>>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanghee
>>>>>
>>>>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>>>>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
>>>>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>>>>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>>>>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>>>>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>>>>> Twitter: @foss4g
>>>>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>>>>> email: [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Milo van der Linden
>>>> web: dogodigi
>>>> tel: +31-6-16598808
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Massimiliano Cannata
>>
>> Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
>>
>> Responsabile settore Geomatica
>>
>>
>> Istituto scienze della Terra
>>
>> Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design
>>
>> Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana
>>
>> Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio
>>
>> Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14
>>
>> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> www.supsi.ch/ist
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
> Charlie Schweik
>
> Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
> Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration
>
> Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik
> Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/
>
> Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es


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