Code of Conduct in Real Case

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Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Jeroen Ticheler - GeoCat
Dear Sanghee,

In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)?

;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects.

The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others.

Cheers,
Jeroen

> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Baumann, Peter
+1
-Peter


On 06/24/15 13:01, Jeroen Ticheler wrote:

> Dear Sanghee,
>
> In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated, generalizing men as nerds)?
>
> ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan for the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects.
>
> The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards others.
>
> Cheers,
> Jeroen
>
>> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>
>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>
>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>
>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>
>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>
>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>
>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sanghee
>>
>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>> ---
>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>> Twitter: @foss4g
>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>> email: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Conference_dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

--
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   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: [hidden email]
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   www.rasdaman.com, mail: [hidden email]
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Bart van den Eijnden (OSGIS)-2
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Hi Charlie,

I actually get your point of view, and tend to agree with it.

Best regards,
Bart

On 24 Jun 2015, at 13:42, Charles Schweik <[hidden email]> wrote:

OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to GeoForAll. 

By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.

From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in. 

Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what they represent better than they do currently. 

I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees.

I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to recruit people to our global conference. 

It appears that others disagree with this view. 

Charlie Schweik 
  

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Sanghee,

> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

* Who asked to remove the slides?

* Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?

On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

But this is just my POV.

Best regards,
--
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
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Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration


Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545

--------------------------------------------
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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

Till Adams-3
In reply to this post by Jeroen Ticheler - GeoCat
Hi all,

I totally agree with Jeroen in all points.

For me it looks like we've made up things more complicated and really
mistrust our own auto-regulate-issues, that work in every
software-project, meeting, conference, whatever....
We from FOSSGIS e.V. already ran more than 10 FOSSGIS conferences with
several hundreds attendees each - and I can't remember on any case,
where s.th. like "CoC" should have been adapted yet.

A clear "howto adapt" for LOC's would be really useful in my eyes.

Just regarding "our" FOSS4G2016 here in Bonn - do we need a "CoC-Chair"
caring about all this "CoC-issues" beside all the work to be done beside
that?
Does anybody know that person wanting to carefully investigate every
single slide shown on a conference before the event (also knowing that
many of us prepare their last slides in their session?)
In case yes, please link him/her (or her/him?) over to me ;-).

I know that I am overdrawing - reagrd this just as my 2 cents,


so far, Till






Am 2015-06-24 13:01, schrieb Jeroen Ticheler:

> Dear Sanghee,
>
> In my opinion these are perfectly fine. But could you please remove a
> couple of other pictures picturing OSGeo developers (male dominated,
> generalizing men as nerds)?
>
> ;-) Joking apart, I’ve not been in favor of the CoC in the first
> place. I think it creates more unwanted side effects (like this
> request to remove art or remove single sex pictures) than that it
> prevents a person with bad intentions to refrain from them. A plan
> for
> the LOC on how to deal with a person acting offensively makes more
> sense to me. I trust our community members are able to behave as
> sensitive and sensible people that can auto-regulate issues like this
> in the same way we collaborate in FOSS projects.
>
> The CoC has been established, not sure if it was adopted by the OSGeo
> board? If it was, we have to deal with it, so this discussion may be
> useful indeed. Otherwise, I vote for removing the CoC again and work
> towards a plan for LOC’s to deal with offensive behavior towards
> others.
>
> Cheers,
> Jeroen
>
>> On 24 jun. 2015, at 12:22, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>
>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons
>> why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main
>> page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women.
>> Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20
>> (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>
>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
>> presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>
>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those
>> slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d
>> better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>
>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this
>> from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input
>> as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>
>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other
>> people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for
>> OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>
>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
>> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
>> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread
>> of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sanghee
>>
>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>> ---
>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>> Twitter: @foss4g
>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>> email: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Conference_dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Dear All, 

One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. 

If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. 

I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 

I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015



2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> 작성:

Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin

Dear Charles,

I understand your real intention now. Just like you mentioned, it's not the issue of CoC. That's me who links this with CoC. And I myself brought this to the public discussion since I felt I could be wrong and this might be the matter of CoC. We should have discussed this earlier in private first.

Thanks for your care.

Sanghee

2015. 6. 24. 오후 2:54에 "Charles Schweik" <[hidden email]>님이 작성:
>
> (I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):
>
> This isn't a COC issue. 
>
> This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue, representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured the confusion I had over messaging better than I did. 
>
> Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models sequence.
>
> Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.
>
> Charlie Schweik
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Just my 0.0002 cents,
>>
>> I feel things are getting over complicated.
>>
>> We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
>> Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from the community.
>>
>> Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D
>>
>> My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct moral society rules.
>>
>> Maxi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Dear All, 
>>>
>>> One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history book. 
>>>
>>> If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA. 
>>>
>>> I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 
>>>
>>> I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 
>>>
>>> All the best, 
>>>
>>> Sanghee
>>> ---
>>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
>>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>>> Twitter: @foss4g
>>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>>> email: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> 작성:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sanghee,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the presentation.
>>>>
>>>> 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".
>>>>
>>>> 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
>>>>
>>>> Final thought:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
>>>>
>>>> So thank you for that!
>>>>
>>>> With respect, kind regards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>>>>
>>>>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>>>>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>>>>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanghee
>>>>>
>>>>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>>>>> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
>>>>> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>>>>> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>>>>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>>>>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>>>>> Twitter: @foss4g
>>>>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>>>>> email: [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Milo van der Linden
>>>> web: dogodigi
>>>> tel: +31-6-16598808
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Massimiliano Cannata
>>
>> Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
>>
>> Responsabile settore Geomatica
>>
>>
>> Istituto scienze della Terra
>>
>> Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design
>>
>> Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana
>>
>> Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio
>>
>> Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14
>>
>> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> www.supsi.ch/ist
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
> Charlie Schweik
>
> Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
> Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and Administration
>
> Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik
> Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/
>
> Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

K.Bott
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Hi, all --

Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners).

re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee as well as drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015.

Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved.

If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise.

cheers -
-kristin

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not enough,
there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
to all reports)

I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
statement.

I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
move forward, or not at all.

-jeff


--
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: [hidden email]
>
>
>
_______________________________________________


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Jachym Cepicky
To get the presentation in balance again, I suggest:

1) add description to the slide with Girls' Generation image (neither I do not know this band)
2) replace back of a woman with back of a man, so that the message remains the same. I volunteer with couple of images of mine, you can grab it from facebook

J

P.S. ;-) 

st 24. 6. 2015 v 17:52 odesílatel Kristin Bott <[hidden email]> napsal:
Hi, all --

Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners).

re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee as well as drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015.

Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved.

If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise.

cheers -
-kristin

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not enough,
there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
to all reports)

I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
statement.

I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
move forward, or not at all.

-jeff


--
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: [hidden email]
>
>
>
_______________________________________________

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[hidden email]
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Jorge Gustavo Rocha
Dear friends,

FOSS4G is about innovation. "In freedom we trust" do promote disruption.
We should reject the way things are supposed to be. That's what I
learned from... FOSS4G!

The CoC is the certificate that we are dying. We will make all of us
grey. It will kill our passion.

The CoC is already being used to limit Sanghee freedom of speech. Yes,
that's the very first use of our brand new CoC. Governments have great
imagination to justify and restrict the freedom of speech. We adopted a
CoC, which is a polite way to do so.

Why we care about companies that do not sponsor conferences without a
Code of Conduct? Only a few companies understand and practice the
principles we believe on. These are the companies I like to see in our
FOSS4G showroom: the ones able to do something different. I don't care
about the others. We are not OGC, W3C or any other body ruled by the
"art of consensus". Our rule should be the art of disruption.

We are not interested in "more women to become engaged in FOSS4G". We
are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't
care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system.
Why are we interested specifically in more women?

There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge
accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to
have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the
throat attending FOSS4G and moving around.

We should not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. We believe in
freedom: we rejecting the way things are supposed to be. We should be
leading, not following.

I look forward to review you all in Seoul (or in Como).

Jorge Gustavo

On 24-06-2015 18:11, Jachym Cepicky wrote:

> To get the presentation in balance again, I suggest:
>
> 1) add description to the slide with Girls' Generation image (neither I
> do not know this band)
> 2) replace back of a woman with back of a man, so that the message
> remains the same. I volunteer with couple of images of mine, you can
> grab it from facebook
>
> J
>
> P.S. ;-)
>
> st 24. 6. 2015 v 17:52 odesílatel Kristin Bott <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> napsal:
>
>     Hi, all --
>
>     Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant
>     (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in
>     multiple corners).
>
>     re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during
>     State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an
>     implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting
>     language to present to the board to form a CoC committee /as well as
>     /drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have
>     this done by 1 September 2015.
>
>     Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a
>     structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible
>     for all involved.
>
>     If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to
>     contact me, off-list or otherwise.
>
>     cheers -
>     -kristin
>
>     On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna
>     <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to
>         point out
>         that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not
>         enough,
>         there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
>         letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no
>         implementation
>         plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A
>         few good
>         volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an
>         implementation
>         plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this,
>         great,
>         but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
>         community members are already contacting me directly with
>         reports, and I
>         have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice
>         enough to
>         help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot
>         apply
>         to all reports)
>
>         I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for
>         the Code
>         of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is
>         removed
>         from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple
>         Diversity
>         statement.
>
>         I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
>         move forward, or not at all.
>
>         -jeff
>
>
>         --
>         Jeff McKenna
>         President, OSGeo
>         http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna
>
>
>
>
>         On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
>          > Dear All,
>          >
>          > It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real
>         case.
>          >
>          > I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7
>         Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is
>         at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to
>         women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting)
>         and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>          >
>          > I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
>         presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>          >
>          > However since this is not the first time asking me to remove
>         those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I
>         think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach
>         conclusions.
>          >
>          > I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion
>         on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference
>         Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo
>         conference.
>          >
>          > I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing
>         other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great
>         chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>          >
>          > *Sidenote for defending myself:
>          > - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting
>         named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>          > - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
>         Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide
>         spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>          >
>          > All the best,
>          >
>          > Sanghee
>          >
>          > [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>          > [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
>          > [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
>          > [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
>          > ---
>          > Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>          > "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>          > http://2015.foss4g.org
>          > Twitter: @foss4g
>          > Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>          > email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>          >
>          >
>          >
>         _______________________________________________
>         Discuss mailing list
>         [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Conference_dev mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

J. Gustavo
--
Jorge Gustavo Rocha
Departamento de Informática
Universidade do Minho
4710-057 Braga
Tel: +351 253604480
Fax: +351 253604471
Móvel: +351 910333888
skype: nabocudnosor
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Darrell Fuhriman
I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me.

I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G.

Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations.

We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries.

I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome.  If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.

A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!”

If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end.

Darrell


> We are not interested in "more women to become engaged in FOSS4G". We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women?
>
> There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around.

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Cameron Shorter
In reply to this post by K.Bott
So we have had a difficult question related to the CoC. I'm sure it won't be the first.

Based on feedback so far, it appears that rough consensus is that the suggested images don't represent a breach of (western) norms of what is considered acceptable.
So here is a proposed action plan:

* OSGeo put the question to a vote (probably on the OSGeo-Conf list).

* Assuming the images are considered acceptable by the list, we respond with:

"Thank you for raising the possibility of a CoC breach. We have considered your suggestion, and in this case, we have decided that we do not think that the intent of the CoC has been breached. If you have further information which you wish to raise you are welcome to do so. Thank for you caring and we hope to see you at future OSGeo events.
Warm regards <chair of committee>"

I suggest that we don't throw out the the CoC just because of an over-protective reference to it. The CoC will be very helpful if/when we need to deal with a serious breach.

Hi Kristin,
It is great to hear that you are working on an implementation plan. If you would like some help with reviewing or similar, then feel free to contact me.

Warm regards,
Cameron

On 25/06/2015 1:52 am, Kristin Bott wrote:
Hi, all --

Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple corners).

re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board to form a CoC committee as well as drafting an implementation plan. Jeff, we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015.

Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all involved.

If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me, off-list or otherwise.

cheers -
-kristin

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not enough,
there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
to all reports)

I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
statement.

I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
move forward, or not at all.

-jeff


--
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: [hidden email]
>
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
In reply to this post by Darrell Fuhriman
Hello Darrell,

I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate.

It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC.

If we want to be a "broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world", we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year.  

You said, "If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members?

I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_303.10.asp
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



> 2015. 6. 24., 오후 10:42, Darrell Fuhriman <[hidden email]> 작성:
>
> I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me.
>
> I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G.
>
> Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations.
>
> We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries.
>
> I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome.  If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.
>
> A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!”
>
> If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end.
>
> Darrell
>
>
>> We are not interested in "more women to become engaged in FOSS4G". We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women?
>>
>> There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Conference_dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Darrell Fuhriman
> I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years.

Great. Why are so few of them in positions of power? Why aren’t  a majority of our CEOs women? Why aren’t a majority of our biologists women? Why aren’t a majority of our legislators women? We can come up with all sorts of excuses to dance around the problem, because we’d rather go through mental contortions than admit the obvious: sexism in ubiquitous . (For a related discussion, I recommend the book “Racism without Racists” which thoroughly examines how a lot of people who don’t think of themselves as racist actually take part in behaviors and support structures that are in fact, racist.)

> However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate.

This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault.

It *is* our fault. It’s systemic and it’s pernicious.

And honestly, it doesn’t take much looking to find stories of women who have left technical fields because they’re tired of the abuse. But the reality is most of them quietly leave, so when people say, “I can’t recall a time that happened…” it’s not because it doesn’t happen, it’s because those people aren’t paying attention.

> It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC.

Are you sure? I mean this seriously. Do you have evidence for that, or are you just assuming? I’m not fetishizing the CoC itself, obviously having a CoC doesn’t magically make an open community, but it’s a symbol that the community does take inclusivity seriously.

> If we want to be a "broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world", we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year.  
>

You will not get an argument for me. I’ve been arguing for a long time that there needs to be concerted and honest outreach to the rest of the world.  So far the OSGeo model has been “build it and they they will come” (to use a Hollywood reference). This is, of course, hogwash. I’ve had a number of conversations about how OSGeo should be sponsoring workshops around world. Spending the money produced by FOSS4G to put on “FOSS4G East Africa” even if it loses money. I want there to be FOSS4G Ouagadougou, FOSS4G Kuala Lampur, FOSS4G Vietnam, FOSS4G Uruguay.

That’s the world I want.

> You said, "If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members?

No, of course not. CoC’s aren’t magic, but they’re a statement of belief in higher ideal.


> I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population.
>

Well, with the exception of the “white” part, I actually mostly agree with this (ignoring the status of minorities, which are common in the advanced world). However, I would also point out that women, globally, are 51% of the population. Why *not* make them feel safer?

But if the argument is essentially, “we’re not making better for everyone, then what’s the point of doing it for some” then I reject that. Because again, this is merely a step, and every journey requires many steps.

So my question to you is this: if a CoC is insufficient for building a globally diverse community (which I agree it is), in what way is it actively harmful to that cause? Would *not* having a CoC further the goals of creating a better community? If so, how?

Darrell


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Darrell Fuhriman

On Jun 24, 2015, at 20:35, Darrell Fuhriman <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is false. Simply false. If people are abused out of a line of work until they quit, that’s not “women choosing other jobs” anymore than me walking into your house, punching you in the face until you leave then claiming “He abandoned it” means it’s not my fault.

BTW, I want to draw attention to the fact that this isn’t news. We’ve known this for a long time (the research below is from 2008), The problem is staring us the face, and a tremendous number of people in our community remain in denial about it. 

Please read:


Key quotes:

“Our research findings show that on the lower rungs of corporate career ladders, fully 41% of highly qualified scientists, engineers, and technologists are women. But the dropout rates are huge: Over time 52% of these talented women quit their jobs."
[…]
"So why do women leave science, engineering, and technology careers The answer comes in five parts. First and foremost, the hostility of the workplace culture drives them out. If machismo is on the run in most U.S. corporate settings, then this is its Alamo—a last holdout of redoubled intensity.”

I realize this study is US focused, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the US is any way an outlier in these matters.

Darrell



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Darrell Fuhriman

> On Jun 24, 2015, at 23:26, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Why don't the women take the place and the power by themselves?

Why don’t the poor take from the rich? Why don’t the weak take from the strong? Why don’t the slaves take over the master’s house?

The question should answer itself.

Darrell





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Re: Code of Conduct in Real Case

David Percy
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Hi Sanghee, thanks for bringing this into the open.
There are a lot of strong feelings/opinions on this subject, which as a strong community we will work through.

The Dali painting seems innocent.

The girl band photo, lacking a lot of context, says to me "come to South Korea for the pretty ladies". That is obviously not your intended message.

If you had a montage of other artists from the K-Pop scene (boy-bands, the gangman style guy, etc, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_in_South_Korean_music) it would make your point in a completely non-controversial way. There's a lot of cool culture going on!

Keep your head down and plan the best conference ever. We are all on your side to make it successful.
The rest of us will *slowly* work our way through the best way to increase diversity and implement our new CoC.
:-)
Cheers,
Percy

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear All,

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those controversial ones.

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how to apply CoC in real cases.

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

stevenfeldman
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Well said Sanghee
______
Steven


On 25 Jun 2015, at 02:21, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Darrell,

I don’t think the reason why OSGeo has not so many women are caused by lacking of CoC in OSGeo. According to the statistics National Centre for Education Statistics[0], women have outnumbered men in American colleges for last 35 years. However women just selected another jobs rather than programming or geospatial. It’s not our fault. I couldn’t recall any decisive moment that lacking of CoC in OSGeo excluded participation of female except recent comments from Kate.

It’s very similar in Korea as well. More than 45% of college students are female. However they *DO* select another jobs instead of selecting programming or geospatial. That’s why only around 10% are female in Korean Chapter. It’s not because lacking of CoC.

If we want to be a "broad community, a global community, also truly reflective of the whole world", we’d better discuss how to effectively engage other members from 3rd countries or developing countries. Do you know people in Asia outnumber the other part of the world? Frankly to say I haven’t seen any much effort from OSGeo to try to engage members from developing countries. Ah.. we have travel grants once a year.  

You said, "If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.” Great! And then what is the real relation between your phrase and CoC. Do you really believe that imposing CoC automatically make OSGeo more welcomed organisation to 3rd countries or developing countries members?

I feel that CoC is for white women in advanced countries. I know I might be wrong. However whenever we talk about CoC, it’s all about sexy image or something like that. It’s not about how to engage 2/3 of world population.

All the best,

Sanghee

[0]http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_303.10.asp
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: [hidden email]



2015. 6. 24., 오후 10:42, Darrell Fuhriman <[hidden email]> 작성:

I’m not sure who the “we” you are referring to here is, but it certainly does not include me.

I am absolutely, 100%, interested in having more women become engaged in FOSS4G.

Please don’t make such sweeping generalizations.

We are a broad community, a global community, but we are not truly reflective of the whole world. We are largely white men from wealthy countries.

I *want* people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. And that means making sure have a community where *everyone* feels welcome.  If our FOSS4G community does not reflect the entire world, then we are failing to engage all people, or worse, chasing some of them away.

A CoC is not a sign that we are dying, a CoC is a sign that we acknowledge that we are insufficiently inclusive, and that we as a community will not stand for that. It’s a sign that says “We do not want behaviors that drive people away, behaviors that make our community *smaller*. We are a welcoming community and we want *you* to be part of it.”Is a CoC sufficient to create that community? Absolutely not, but it’s a step forwards. A flag in the ground — a flag that says, “We welcome you!”

If we’re afraid of that, then we truly are a dying community, and one that deserves to meet its quiet, irrelevant end.

Darrell


We are not interested in "more women to become engaged in FOSS4G". We are interested in people engaged and passionate about FOSS4G. We don't care about the sex, the colour, the religious or the operating system. Why are we interested specifically in more women?

There is a large and growing business behind FOSS4G, which is an huge accomplishment of FOSS4G, that we should care and maintain. It is ok to have some grey people with a strange piece of cloth knotted at the throat attending FOSS4G and moving around.

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

Sanghee Shin
In reply to this post by Sanghee Shin
Dear All, 

I’d like to report updates on our discussion. 

1. Regarding CoC offline discussion at FOSS4G Seoul, we may have discussion at BOF meeting[0]. I believe Jeff already marked the timeslot there on 16th September. If you need more timeslots, just add to the BOF wiki please. Also if you want have any BOF meeting during FOSS4G Seoul, please add your plan to the wiki page. 

2. I removed my controversial(?) presentation from the main page. I think it was too outdated and  not so attractive. It’s now time to promote through FOSS4G Seoul program itself. You may see new main page there[1]. 

Your attending and participation is very crucial to the success of FOSS4G Seoul. Please register FOSS4G Seoul(http://2015.foss4g.org/attending/registration/) and meet up in Seoul altogether!!

All the best, 

Sanghee

[0]http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2015_BirdsOfAFeather
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org/
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015



2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:34, Sanghee Shin <[hidden email]> 작성:

Dear All, 

Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this mailing lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough on this. 

I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 

And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my clear intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 

Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 

How about having a break for while?

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015



2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata <[hidden email]> 작성:

Once again I express my opinion:
I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.

If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the agreed CoC.
Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone presentation? 

The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch of people deciding what is good or not.

And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )


Maxi



2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel <[hidden email]>:
I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you search queries that will bring them up:

"PyCon donglegate"
"TechCrunch sexism"
"Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
"GamerGate"

Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are threats of rape and murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection is that women just just force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture funding is rarely offered to women.

When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude, which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998 (sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of "us against them".  Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are already in the pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is causing this fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship around.  But there are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.  That took being publicly shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~ "How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft") and a new CEO (Satya Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).

There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails the test, right there on camera...


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