Chapter creation as NGO

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Chapter creation as NGO

María Arias de Reyna-4
Hi,

Context: We should have some kind of legal form on the EU Chapter so
we can have access to subsidies, handle money and lobby.

So I have been asking around. And Spain has become a bad place to do this.

The process to create organizations is quite simple and straight
forward, I just need two Spanish persons more and write some rules
about how we will work. In Spanish (which can be easily translatable,
I'm not worried about that).

But now if we have money on our bank account, we will have to pay
taxes yearly:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impuesto_de_sociedades_(Espa%C3%B1a)

It should not be a high tax (depends on what we do), but it is not pretty.

Before, you could have small amounts in the bank without having to pay
taxes, but they rewrote the law and removed that part. Donations,
subventions and subscriptions are exempt, but if we organize for
example a FOSS4G-EU and sell tickets, we will have to pay taxes for that.
(And we should be very careful about subventions, donations and
subscriptions, because depending on how we do it we may have to pay
taxes too). We will also have to be very careful and detailed on how we
spend the money to prove we are non-lucrative. If the Tax Agency
suspects that we are paying higher diets for travelling than what they
think is needed then we may get fines, for example.

(Yes, they don't know where else they can tax or fine us...)

So unless you have similar issues, I guess Spain is not pretty for
creating the European Chapter. If you have similar taxes, then Spain
makes it very easy to create and maintain, although we will have to
pay someone to take care of all this bureaucratic details.

Regards,
María.
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Ari Jolma-2
Hi,

It seems to me that many European or even global societies organize
themselves in European tax havens, which include Switzerland, Luxemburg,
Belgium, Austria, etc (this is a partial list from wikipedia).

In Finland we have the local committee as a legal society, which is tax
free as long as we don't do anything that looks like business to the tax
collector. Collecting money for activities and even paying salaries is
usually ok. We don't have to report to the tax collector unless we do
business - but what is business is again somewhat fuzzy.

Best,

Ari


11.01.2017, 11:06, María Arias de Reyna kirjoitti:

> Hi,
>
> Context: We should have some kind of legal form on the EU Chapter so
> we can have access to subsidies, handle money and lobby.
>
> So I have been asking around. And Spain has become a bad place to do this.
>
> The process to create organizations is quite simple and straight
> forward, I just need two Spanish persons more and write some rules
> about how we will work. In Spanish (which can be easily translatable,
> I'm not worried about that).
>
> But now if we have money on our bank account, we will have to pay
> taxes yearly:
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impuesto_de_sociedades_(Espa%C3%B1a)
>
> It should not be a high tax (depends on what we do), but it is not pretty.
>
> Before, you could have small amounts in the bank without having to pay
> taxes, but they rewrote the law and removed that part. Donations,
> subventions and subscriptions are exempt, but if we organize for
> example a FOSS4G-EU and sell tickets, we will have to pay taxes for that.
> (And we should be very careful about subventions, donations and
> subscriptions, because depending on how we do it we may have to pay
> taxes too). We will also have to be very careful and detailed on how we
> spend the money to prove we are non-lucrative. If the Tax Agency
> suspects that we are paying higher diets for travelling than what they
> think is needed then we may get fines, for example.
>
> (Yes, they don't know where else they can tax or fine us...)
>
> So unless you have similar issues, I guess Spain is not pretty for
> creating the European Chapter. If you have similar taxes, then Spain
> makes it very easy to create and maintain, although we will have to
> pay someone to take care of all this bureaucratic details.
>
> Regards,
> María.
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

María Arias de Reyna-2
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It seems to me that many European or even global societies organize
> themselves in European tax havens, which include Switzerland, Luxemburg,
> Belgium, Austria, etc (this is a partial list from wikipedia).
>
> In Finland we have the local committee as a legal society, which is tax free
> as long as we don't do anything that looks like business to the tax
> collector. Collecting money for activities and even paying salaries is
> usually ok. We don't have to report to the tax collector unless we do
> business - but what is business is again somewhat fuzzy.
>
> Best,
>
> Ari
>
>

Hi Ari,

Good to know! Why do we want tax heavens if it is not for good things
like this? :)

So, is someone on some friendlier country wanting to step forward for
this? I can help from here, but I guess we need at least someone
officially living on the country we want to set up the association.

María.
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Till Adams-3
Dear Maria, @all,

many thanks for putting this forward, I really look forward to get a
solid OSGeo-EU established in 2017 ;-). Indeed this is an important
question: I proposed the OSGeo board to keep at least some of the F4G
2016 surplus over here in Europe. But in order to be able to transfer
money from the current FOSSGIS (OSGeo chapter
Germany/Switzerland/Austria) bank account, we need a legal entity, that
also is accepted as non-profit organisation.

There is a possibility to do this over here in Germany, but the process
to found a registered society and then to be accepted as non-profit
organisation takes some time (to be honest, too long :-( ).

Dirk talked about a possibility to have this in Belgium, @Dirk perhaps
you can report your ideas?

Till




Am 11.01.2017 um 10:43 schrieb María Arias de Reyna:

> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> It seems to me that many European or even global societies organize
>> themselves in European tax havens, which include Switzerland, Luxemburg,
>> Belgium, Austria, etc (this is a partial list from wikipedia).
>>
>> In Finland we have the local committee as a legal society, which is tax free
>> as long as we don't do anything that looks like business to the tax
>> collector. Collecting money for activities and even paying salaries is
>> usually ok. We don't have to report to the tax collector unless we do
>> business - but what is business is again somewhat fuzzy.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Ari
>>
>>
> Hi Ari,
>
> Good to know! Why do we want tax heavens if it is not for good things
> like this? :)
>
> So, is someone on some friendlier country wanting to step forward for
> this? I can help from here, but I guess we need at least someone
> officially living on the country we want to set up the association.
>
> María.
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Dirk Frigne-2
In reply to this post by María Arias de Reyna-2
Hi,

I see Belgium is on the list ...
I can help from Belgium, apparantly on the list ...
I can even ask someone who has an address in Brussels and is also
hosting OSGeo Belgium for this reason, if he agree's to host the EU
local chapter.

I know the rules in Belgium a bit, and the law is becoming more severe
for organisations mis-using this non-for-profit structure to hide some
business activities and misusing money. But in case of OSGeo, I don't
see any problem, as this is a real non-for-profit organisation.

I think that in this case it can be interesting to have a legal entity
(non-for-profit).

I can re-use the by-laws from OSGeo.Be (which are a french translation
from the OSGeo.org by laws, and adapted for Belgium law.

Can we make a list on the wiki who want's to be a in the official
document to create a legal structure? I will need the full identity
data, but will ask for that in a seperate mail.

I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.


Dirk




On 11-01-17 10:43, María Arias de Reyna wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> It seems to me that many European or even global societies organize
>> themselves in European tax havens, which include Switzerland, Luxemburg,
>> Belgium, Austria, etc (this is a partial list from wikipedia).
>>
>> In Finland we have the local committee as a legal society, which is tax free
>> as long as we don't do anything that looks like business to the tax
>> collector. Collecting money for activities and even paying salaries is
>> usually ok. We don't have to report to the tax collector unless we do
>> business - but what is business is again somewhat fuzzy.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Ari
>>
>>
>
> Hi Ari,
>
> Good to know! Why do we want tax heavens if it is not for good things
> like this? :)
>
> So, is someone on some friendlier country wanting to step forward for
> this? I can help from here, but I guess we need at least someone
> officially living on the country we want to set up the association.
>
> María.
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
>

--
Yours sincerely,


ir. Dirk Frigne
CEO @geosparc

Geosparc n.v.
Brugsesteenweg 587
B-9030 Ghent
Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
GSM: +32 495 508 799

http://www.geomajas.org
http://www.geosparc.com

@DFrigne
be.linkedin.com/in/frigne

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

María Arias de Reyna-2
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.

Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Till Adams-3
In reply to this post by Dirk Frigne-2
as far as these members mustn't be Belgium citizens, you can count on me.


Am 11.01.2017 um 10:55 schrieb Dirk Frigne:

> Hi,
>
> I see Belgium is on the list ...
> I can help from Belgium, apparantly on the list ...
> I can even ask someone who has an address in Brussels and is also
> hosting OSGeo Belgium for this reason, if he agree's to host the EU
> local chapter.
>
> I know the rules in Belgium a bit, and the law is becoming more severe
> for organisations mis-using this non-for-profit structure to hide some
> business activities and misusing money. But in case of OSGeo, I don't
> see any problem, as this is a real non-for-profit organisation.
>
> I think that in this case it can be interesting to have a legal entity
> (non-for-profit).
>
> I can re-use the by-laws from OSGeo.Be (which are a french translation
> from the OSGeo.org by laws, and adapted for Belgium law.
>
> Can we make a list on the wiki who want's to be a in the official
> document to create a legal structure? I will need the full identity
> data, but will ask for that in a seperate mail.
>
> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>
>
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
> On 11-01-17 10:43, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> It seems to me that many European or even global societies organize
>>> themselves in European tax havens, which include Switzerland, Luxemburg,
>>> Belgium, Austria, etc (this is a partial list from wikipedia).
>>>
>>> In Finland we have the local committee as a legal society, which is tax free
>>> as long as we don't do anything that looks like business to the tax
>>> collector. Collecting money for activities and even paying salaries is
>>> usually ok. We don't have to report to the tax collector unless we do
>>> business - but what is business is again somewhat fuzzy.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ari
>>>
>>>
>> Hi Ari,
>>
>> Good to know! Why do we want tax heavens if it is not for good things
>> like this? :)
>>
>> So, is someone on some friendlier country wanting to step forward for
>> this? I can help from here, but I guess we need at least someone
>> officially living on the country we want to set up the association.
>>
>> María.
>> _______________________________________________
>> EU mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
>>

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Marc Vloemans-3
In reply to this post by Till Adams-3
Hi Till et al.,

I have set up two foundations in the past in The Netherlands.
In NL foundations do not pay tax as long as their bylaws state explicitly that it has no profit goals. However, it is allowed to create a financial buffer for continuity by putting 'profits' aside on the balance sheet.

Costs for Chamber of Commerce and legal to set up; ca 650 Euro. Annual accountants statement for tax office; 500-700 euro.

If above is acceptable it can be set up within 4-6 weeks.  

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 11 jan. 2017 om 10:54 heeft Till Adams <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Dear Maria, @all,
>
> many thanks for putting this forward, I really look forward to get a
> solid OSGeo-EU established in 2017 ;-). Indeed this is an important
> question: I proposed the OSGeo board to keep at least some of the F4G
> 2016 surplus over here in Europe. But in order to be able to transfer
> money from the current FOSSGIS (OSGeo chapter
> Germany/Switzerland/Austria) bank account, we need a legal entity, that
> also is accepted as non-profit organisation.
>
> There is a possibility to do this over here in Germany, but the process
> to found a registered society and then to be accepted as non-profit
> organisation takes some time (to be honest, too long :-( ).
>
> Dirk talked about a possibility to have this in Belgium, @Dirk perhaps
> you can report your ideas?
>
> Till
>
>
>
>
>> Am 11.01.2017 um 10:43 schrieb María Arias de Reyna:
>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> It seems to me that many European or even global societies organize
>>> themselves in European tax havens, which include Switzerland, Luxemburg,
>>> Belgium, Austria, etc (this is a partial list from wikipedia).
>>>
>>> In Finland we have the local committee as a legal society, which is tax free
>>> as long as we don't do anything that looks like business to the tax
>>> collector. Collecting money for activities and even paying salaries is
>>> usually ok. We don't have to report to the tax collector unless we do
>>> business - but what is business is again somewhat fuzzy.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ari
>>>
>>>
>> Hi Ari,
>>
>> Good to know! Why do we want tax heavens if it is not for good things
>> like this? :)
>>
>> So, is someone on some friendlier country wanting to step forward for
>> this? I can help from here, but I guess we need at least someone
>> officially living on the country we want to set up the association.
>>
>> María.
>> _______________________________________________
>> EU mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
>
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Dirk Frigne-2
In reply to this post by María Arias de Reyna-2
This is not necessary.
I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
founding members.

The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.


The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
non-for-profit organsitaions.


I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.


Dirk.


On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>
> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>

--
Yours sincerely,


ir. Dirk Frigne
CEO @geosparc

Geosparc n.v.
Brugsesteenweg 587
B-9030 Ghent
Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
GSM: +32 495 508 799

http://www.geomajas.org
http://www.geosparc.com

@DFrigne
be.linkedin.com/in/frigne

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

María Arias de Reyna-2
Then you can count with me as a member.

Maybe we should make a comparison between a few countries to see which
one fits better? Having fixed yearly prices as in The Netherlands is
fine for me, but it is best if there is none :)

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is not necessary.
> I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
> founding members.
>
> The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
> more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.
>
>
> The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
> non-for-profit organsitaions.
>
>
> I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.
>
>
> Dirk.
>
>
> On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>>
>> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>>
>
> --
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
> ir. Dirk Frigne
> CEO @geosparc
>
> Geosparc n.v.
> Brugsesteenweg 587
> B-9030 Ghent
> Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
> GSM: +32 495 508 799
>
> http://www.geomajas.org
> http://www.geosparc.com
>
> @DFrigne
> be.linkedin.com/in/frigne
>
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Till Adams-3
agree /

Am 11.01.2017 um 11:04 schrieb María Arias de Reyna:

> Then you can count with me as a member.
>
> Maybe we should make a comparison between a few countries to see which
> one fits better? Having fixed yearly prices as in The Netherlands is
> fine for me, but it is best if there is none :)
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is not necessary.
>> I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
>> founding members.
>>
>> The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
>> more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.
>>
>>
>> The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
>> non-for-profit organsitaions.
>>
>>
>> I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.
>>
>>
>> Dirk.
>>
>>
>> On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>>> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>>>
>> --
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>>
>> ir. Dirk Frigne
>> CEO @geosparc
>>
>> Geosparc n.v.
>> Brugsesteenweg 587
>> B-9030 Ghent
>> Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
>> GSM: +32 495 508 799
>>
>> http://www.geomajas.org
>> http://www.geosparc.com
>>
>> @DFrigne
>> be.linkedin.com/in/frigne
>>
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Marc Vloemans-3
In reply to this post by María Arias de Reyna-2
Hi
Cost for setting up are one-off.
Annual accountants costs are unavoidable if we want to keep accountability and transparency.

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 11 jan. 2017 om 11:04 heeft María Arias de Reyna <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Then you can count with me as a member.
>
> Maybe we should make a comparison between a few countries to see which
> one fits better? Having fixed yearly prices as in The Netherlands is
> fine for me, but it is best if there is none :)
>
>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is not necessary.
>> I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
>> founding members.
>>
>> The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
>> more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.
>>
>>
>> The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
>> non-for-profit organsitaions.
>>
>>
>> I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.
>>
>>
>> Dirk.
>>
>>
>>> On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>>>
>>> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>>
>> ir. Dirk Frigne
>> CEO @geosparc
>>
>> Geosparc n.v.
>> Brugsesteenweg 587
>> B-9030 Ghent
>> Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
>> GSM: +32 495 508 799
>>
>> http://www.geomajas.org
>> http://www.geosparc.com
>>
>> @DFrigne
>> be.linkedin.com/in/frigne
>>
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Ari Jolma-2
In reply to this post by María Arias de Reyna-2
11.01.2017, 12:04, María Arias de Reyna kirjoitti:
> Then you can count with me as a member.
>
> Maybe we should make a comparison between a few countries to see which
> one fits better? Having fixed yearly prices as in The Netherlands is
> fine for me, but it is best if there is none :)

You can count me also as a founding member if needed.

The NL prices seem high. For us it was 50 € for registration (we wrote
our bylaws ourselves) and we don't need to report yearly, so no cost. We
do need to keep the books but it is not a big job if there are not much
transactions and can be done by a volunteer. If we want a professional
accountant even then that's not very expensive, perhaps a few hundred
per year. That depends of course and I have only limited experience.

What would the source of income for OSGeo EU be? The FOSS4G Europe?
Would it assume the financial risk? What would it use its money for?
Code sprints etc? What would the yearly turnover be, approximately?
Maybe 10 000?

Ari

>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is not necessary.
>> I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
>> founding members.
>>
>> The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
>> more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.
>>
>>
>> The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
>> non-for-profit organsitaions.
>>
>>
>> I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.
>>
>>
>> Dirk.
>>
>>
>> On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>>> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>>>
>> --
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>>
>> ir. Dirk Frigne
>> CEO @geosparc
>>
>> Geosparc n.v.
>> Brugsesteenweg 587
>> B-9030 Ghent
>> Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
>> GSM: +32 495 508 799
>>
>> http://www.geomajas.org
>> http://www.geosparc.com
>>
>> @DFrigne
>> be.linkedin.com/in/frigne
>>
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

María Arias de Reyna-2
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What would the source of income for OSGeo EU be? The FOSS4G Europe? Would it
> assume the financial risk? What would it use its money for? Code sprints
> etc? What would the yearly turnover be, approximately? Maybe 10 000?
>

That's a very good question.

In my mind, besides the main events (which should be autosustainable?)
and subsidies, we should accept generic donations by web.

We can also encourage people to give money on each minor event we do,
as artists on the street do. Even if it is not a big amount of money,
it is a reminder that this has some cost, but if you cannot pay it,
it's not that important. And coin by coin, it can be a huge amount
that can be useful for organizing other minor events.

What we do with the budget should be voted I think, but as you say,
codesprints and other minor events will be a good thing to sponsor.
And lobbying to the EC to encourage promoting open software.
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Till Adams-3
In reply to this post by Ari Jolma-2
I guess for now, there will be no income for the start, perhaps some
donations, perhaps the maintaining of some OSGeo money (as mentioned
before).

I think we have to discuss, what happens with FOSS4G-EU, which costs but
also generates money and may be a source of income, at least to cover
running costs for accountancy (I like Marcs idea, because this makes
this finacial part very transparent) we have.
But this could be an issue we can discuss on a meeting at this years
foss4g-eu ?

In Germany FOSSGIS maintains the income from our yearly FOSSGIS
conference, pays for code sprints and some project-related servers and
also covers potential losses a FOSSGIS might have in some years.

Till


Am 11.01.2017 um 11:23 schrieb Ari Jolma:

> 11.01.2017, 12:04, María Arias de Reyna kirjoitti:
>> Then you can count with me as a member.
>>
>> Maybe we should make a comparison between a few countries to see which
>> one fits better? Having fixed yearly prices as in The Netherlands is
>> fine for me, but it is best if there is none :)
>
> You can count me also as a founding member if needed.
>
> The NL prices seem high. For us it was 50 € for registration (we wrote
> our bylaws ourselves) and we don't need to report yearly, so no cost.
> We do need to keep the books but it is not a big job if there are not
> much transactions and can be done by a volunteer. If we want a
> professional accountant even then that's not very expensive, perhaps a
> few hundred per year. That depends of course and I have only limited
> experience.
>
> What would the source of income for OSGeo EU be? The FOSS4G Europe?
> Would it assume the financial risk? What would it use its money for?
> Code sprints etc? What would the yearly turnover be, approximately?
> Maybe 10 000?
>
> Ari
>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dirk Frigne
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This is not necessary.
>>> I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
>>> founding members.
>>>
>>> The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
>>> more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.
>>>
>>>
>>> The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
>>> non-for-profit organsitaions.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dirk.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>>>> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Yours sincerely,
>>>
>>>
>>> ir. Dirk Frigne
>>> CEO @geosparc
>>>
>>> Geosparc n.v.
>>> Brugsesteenweg 587
>>> B-9030 Ghent
>>> Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
>>> GSM: +32 495 508 799
>>>
>>> http://www.geomajas.org
>>> http://www.geosparc.com
>>>
>>> @DFrigne
>>> be.linkedin.com/in/frigne
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> EU mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
>
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Marc Vloemans-3
In reply to this post by Ari Jolma-2
Hi Ari,
In my opinion,
'Members', sponsors and the like would be better served if the books (even the small ones) would be checked and validated by an external and neutral accountant.

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 11 jan. 2017 om 11:23 heeft Ari Jolma <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> 11.01.2017, 12:04, María Arias de Reyna kirjoitti:
>> Then you can count with me as a member.
>>
>> Maybe we should make a comparison between a few countries to see which
>> one fits better? Having fixed yearly prices as in The Netherlands is
>> fine for me, but it is best if there is none :)
>
> You can count me also as a founding member if needed.
>
> The NL prices seem high. For us it was 50 € for registration (we wrote our bylaws ourselves) and we don't need to report yearly, so no cost. We do need to keep the books but it is not a big job if there are not much transactions and can be done by a volunteer. If we want a professional accountant even then that's not very expensive, perhaps a few hundred per year. That depends of course and I have only limited experience.
>
> What would the source of income for OSGeo EU be? The FOSS4G Europe? Would it assume the financial risk? What would it use its money for? Code sprints etc? What would the yearly turnover be, approximately? Maybe 10 000?
>
> Ari
>
>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This is not necessary.
>>> I think it should be great if we have different nationalities as
>>> founding members.
>>>
>>> The only things which were changed to the Belgium law, is to build in
>>> more transparency. This was needed to avoid fraude and misuse.
>>>
>>>
>>> The law is made especially to promote the freedom to create
>>> non-for-profit organsitaions.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this suits very well what we want to do with OSGeo.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dirk.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11-01-17 10:57, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Dirk Frigne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> I think we need as a minimum 3 founding members.
>>>> Just to clarify: 3 founding members from Belgium. Right?
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Yours sincerely,
>>>
>>>
>>> ir. Dirk Frigne
>>> CEO @geosparc
>>>
>>> Geosparc n.v.
>>> Brugsesteenweg 587
>>> B-9030 Ghent
>>> Tel: +32 9 236 60 18
>>> GSM: +32 495 508 799
>>>
>>> http://www.geomajas.org
>>> http://www.geosparc.com
>>>
>>> @DFrigne
>>> be.linkedin.com/in/frigne
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> EU mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

jmckenna
Administrator
In reply to this post by María Arias de Reyna-4
Hi María, all,

I am in full support of an official non-profit organization, around the
EU chapter of OSGeo.

Dirk and others know that I have been trying to help this along for
years now, even in person in meetings with Dirk, and I do understand the
importance of this official entity - it will open doors and give
opportunities.

The QGIS project did create its own official entity, QGIS.ORG registered
in Switzerland, but as a for-profit organization - I also supported that
creation, initially discussing with Tim and others, and it seems to be
doing great for their needs (similar to OSGeo, they just released their
2016 financial report and are discussing their 2017 budget).

So I feel attached to this discussion, and am interested to help the
EU/Europe chapter formation along.  I also volunteer to help, and to be
listed as an initial member (before you laugh, consider that I have
attended almost all FOSS4G-Europe events, and never attended a single
FOSS4G-NorthAmerica event: that fact should show you the importance of
Europe for the OSGeo community).

I have read this whole thread and am interested in seeing this through.

So keep up the great momentum! :)

-jeff

--
Jeff McKenna
President Emeritus, OSGeo Foundation
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna



On 2017-01-11 5:06 AM, María Arias de Reyna wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Context: We should have some kind of legal form on the EU Chapter so
> we can have access to subsidies, handle money and lobby.
>
> So I have been asking around. And Spain has become a bad place to do this.
>
> The process to create organizations is quite simple and straight
> forward, I just need two Spanish persons more and write some rules
> about how we will work. In Spanish (which can be easily translatable,
> I'm not worried about that).
>
> But now if we have money on our bank account, we will have to pay
> taxes yearly:
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impuesto_de_sociedades_(Espa%C3%B1a)
>
> It should not be a high tax (depends on what we do), but it is not pretty.
>
> Before, you could have small amounts in the bank without having to pay
> taxes, but they rewrote the law and removed that part. Donations,
> subventions and subscriptions are exempt, but if we organize for
> example a FOSS4G-EU and sell tickets, we will have to pay taxes for that.
> (And we should be very careful about subventions, donations and
> subscriptions, because depending on how we do it we may have to pay
> taxes too). We will also have to be very careful and detailed on how we
> spend the money to prove we are non-lucrative. If the Tax Agency
> suspects that we are paying higher diets for travelling than what they
> think is needed then we may get fines, for example.
>
> (Yes, they don't know where else they can tax or fine us...)
>
> So unless you have similar issues, I guess Spain is not pretty for
> creating the European Chapter. If you have similar taxes, then Spain
> makes it very easy to create and maintain, although we will have to
> pay someone to take care of all this bureaucratic details.
>
> Regards,
> María.
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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Ian Turton
In reply to this post by María Arias de Reyna-4
We could always consider Estonia - they seem most likely to be able to handle the needs of a mulitnational organization - https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/

Ian



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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Till Adams-3
In reply to this post by jmckenna
Dear all,

we also get support from Canada! Great ;-)
(@Jeff, can't find you on the initial member's list:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Europe)

I would suggest to pick up Steven's thoughts, especially the latter one.
It seems, that Belgium or the Netherlands offer us the possibility to
establish what we need:
(Relatively) rapid and trouble-free creation of a non-profit organisation.

If we all agree on this, my proposal is, that one of our next step is to
decide, in which of the countries we will be in the best hands.
 
For both countries we have at least one person, that has experience in
this (thanks to Marc and Dirk), so this is not an issue, I personally
would not fear having some minor costs, if they help us to keep our
organisation transparent. Also we have people, that are willing to
support them and be initial founding members (Maria, me-myself-and-I)
Perhaps you Dirk and Marc might list up the backgrounds about founding a
non-profit organisation in either of the countries we need in order to
be able to decide?
(and while writing another suggestion, Estonia came in, thanks Ian!)

And before we do that, I'd suggest, that we agree on a way for
decision-making, because that's an important part of an active community
for me. Exchanging tons of emails is one way, but this does not push us
forward one meter, if we are not able to decide anything.

My proposal is to adapt the regular OSGeo voting system as defined here:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Board_Voting_Procedure

As we do not have a "board" for now (and even do not know, whether we
need one), I'd suggest, that everybody listed on the initial member site
is allowed to vote (and everybody else is free to add her/himself to
that list). Also calls for a vote might be done by everybody on that list.

Last thing, the hen and egg problem: No established decision process
prevents us from establishing a decision process .... so let's discuss
this ;-)

Till






Am 11.01.2017 um 14:47 schrieb Jeff McKenna:

> Hi María, all,
>
> I am in full support of an official non-profit organization, around
> the EU chapter of OSGeo.
>
> Dirk and others know that I have been trying to help this along for
> years now, even in person in meetings with Dirk, and I do understand
> the importance of this official entity - it will open doors and give
> opportunities.
>
> The QGIS project did create its own official entity, QGIS.ORG
> registered in Switzerland, but as a for-profit organization - I also
> supported that creation, initially discussing with Tim and others, and
> it seems to be doing great for their needs (similar to OSGeo, they
> just released their 2016 financial report and are discussing their
> 2017 budget).
>
> So I feel attached to this discussion, and am interested to help the
> EU/Europe chapter formation along.  I also volunteer to help, and to
> be listed as an initial member (before you laugh, consider that I have
> attended almost all FOSS4G-Europe events, and never attended a single
> FOSS4G-NorthAmerica event: that fact should show you the importance of
> Europe for the OSGeo community).
>
> I have read this whole thread and am interested in seeing this through.
>
> So keep up the great momentum! :)
>
> -jeff
>

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Re: Chapter creation as NGO

Angelos Tzotsos
There are 2 ways to move forward:
1. Request for an official mandate from the OSGeo Board about an
official EU chapter. This would help establish a membership/decision
procedure etc. Then we move on with the NGO formation.
2. Just make a bootstrap motion on this list which is voted from all
listed here.

Just my 2c,
Angelos

On 01/11/2017 04:39 PM, Till Adams wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> we also get support from Canada! Great ;-)
> (@Jeff, can't find you on the initial member's list:
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Europe)
>
> I would suggest to pick up Steven's thoughts, especially the latter one.
> It seems, that Belgium or the Netherlands offer us the possibility to
> establish what we need:
> (Relatively) rapid and trouble-free creation of a non-profit organisation.
>
> If we all agree on this, my proposal is, that one of our next step is to
> decide, in which of the countries we will be in the best hands.
>  
> For both countries we have at least one person, that has experience in
> this (thanks to Marc and Dirk), so this is not an issue, I personally
> would not fear having some minor costs, if they help us to keep our
> organisation transparent. Also we have people, that are willing to
> support them and be initial founding members (Maria, me-myself-and-I)
> Perhaps you Dirk and Marc might list up the backgrounds about founding a
> non-profit organisation in either of the countries we need in order to
> be able to decide?
> (and while writing another suggestion, Estonia came in, thanks Ian!)
>
> And before we do that, I'd suggest, that we agree on a way for
> decision-making, because that's an important part of an active community
> for me. Exchanging tons of emails is one way, but this does not push us
> forward one meter, if we are not able to decide anything.
>
> My proposal is to adapt the regular OSGeo voting system as defined here:
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Board_Voting_Procedure
>
> As we do not have a "board" for now (and even do not know, whether we
> need one), I'd suggest, that everybody listed on the initial member site
> is allowed to vote (and everybody else is free to add her/himself to
> that list). Also calls for a vote might be done by everybody on that list.
>
> Last thing, the hen and egg problem: No established decision process
> prevents us from establishing a decision process .... so let's discuss
> this ;-)
>
> Till
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 11.01.2017 um 14:47 schrieb Jeff McKenna:
>> Hi María, all,
>>
>> I am in full support of an official non-profit organization, around
>> the EU chapter of OSGeo.
>>
>> Dirk and others know that I have been trying to help this along for
>> years now, even in person in meetings with Dirk, and I do understand
>> the importance of this official entity - it will open doors and give
>> opportunities.
>>
>> The QGIS project did create its own official entity, QGIS.ORG
>> registered in Switzerland, but as a for-profit organization - I also
>> supported that creation, initially discussing with Tim and others, and
>> it seems to be doing great for their needs (similar to OSGeo, they
>> just released their 2016 financial report and are discussing their
>> 2017 budget).
>>
>> So I feel attached to this discussion, and am interested to help the
>> EU/Europe chapter formation along.  I also volunteer to help, and to
>> be listed as an initial member (before you laugh, consider that I have
>> attended almost all FOSS4G-Europe events, and never attended a single
>> FOSS4G-NorthAmerica event: that fact should show you the importance of
>> Europe for the OSGeo community).
>>
>> I have read this whole thread and am interested in seeing this through.
>>
>> So keep up the great momentum! :)
>>
>> -jeff
>>
> _______________________________________________
> EU mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/eu


--
Angelos Tzotsos, PhD
OSGeo Charter Member
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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